Dumbing the US: Education system doesn't know difference between fact and opinion!

Tonight I was talking to this girl who lives a bit north of me, and tomorrow she's got the Arizona Instrument to Measure Standards (AIMS) test to take. She was talking about it, "so easy it hurts" and such... She gave an example:

The boy is running.
I like cheese.
I think the sky is pretty.
My dog is the cutest in the world.

Which ONE of these is a fact?

She believed this question to be easy, and yes, it is, but when I said that there are actually three facts stated in those, she flipped. "I like cheese" states that the speaker likes cheese, not that cheese is likeable. "I think the sky is pretty" states that the speaker appreciates the beauty of the sky, not that it is beautiful. The one that was obvious to her will, of course, be obvious to you all...

Now, the disturbing part: I can verify personally that this has been done for many, many years, because I have answered questions very much like this. I knew the difference early on, figured it was a fluke, but they are STILL TEACHING THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN FACT AND OPINION THIS WAY. It's a goddamn embarassment! Will we soon be in a nation (if you're in the US) where people randomly distort the difference between fact and opinion? This could have some very broad-ranging implications toward the social structure of the country, possibly even proving the "dumbing of America" theory. (There is a book by that title if you are interested in finding out more about that. Haven't read it myself, but have heard some of the highlights.)

It's OK to post here now. Seriously.

Reminds me (a bit) of a time when I was at in a school in London (not as a pupil, but for an event that was being held there). A stack of exercise books was lying around, and glancing through them, it was clear that the teacher had recently attempted to explain the difference between "objective" and "subjective". When the pupils had tried to explain it in their own words, they had mostly come up with things like "The difference between objective and subjective is that objective is good and subjective is bad."

You know, I think they try to get kids to draw the exact same conclusion about fact and opinion. I can remember being lead that direction myself... "So fact is good and opinion is bad, right?" "Right, Timmie (not my name). You're so bright!"

The Matrix has you.

Ultraviolet said:

You know, I think they try to get kids to draw the exact same conclusion about fact and opinion. I can remember being lead that direction myself... "So fact is good and opinion is bad, right?" "Right, Timmie (not my name). You're so bright!"

Welcome to the US.

The boy is running.

"No clue; I don't see any running boys nearby, so... I guess it's not this one."

I like cheese.

"Yeah, this one should work; I do like cheese."

I think the sky is pretty.

"Actually, I'm not thinking about the sky now. Plus, as for thinking in the extended sense, the sky varies, and sometimes it's kinda ugly, so, not really, or... not always. This is confusing; I guess I'll stick to the cheese choice for now, then."

My dog is the cutest in the world.

"Hey, I don't even have a dog..."

Ultraviolet said:
"I like cheese" states that the speaker likes cheese, not that cheese is likeable.

But what defines "likeable," except being liked?

"I think the sky is pretty" states that the speaker appreciates the beauty of the sky, not that it is beautiful.

The subject doesn't need to appreciate the beauty, he or she just needs to think it's beautiful... this does tell us less and maybe nothing about the beauty of the sky, though, since the person could well think this without appreciating any beauty at all.

I agree. That's just despicable. Utterly pathetic. It's implications are more far-reaching than it appears on the surface.

AndrewB said:

I agree. That's just despicable. Utterly pathetic. It's implications are more far-reaching than it appears on the surface.

AndrewBcasm? Hard to tell. You're far too brief and emotionless in your word selection.

No, there's no sarcasm. When a country can't tell the difference between fact and opinion, it's a huge situation. And from what I've seen on evening news, it can't tell the difference.

On an unrelated topic, this is what I saw on a news promo on an American station last week: "Three dead after a carbon monoxide leak. What YOU can do to protect your family."

I know, I'm drudging up an old topic, but you would never see that kind of fear-mongering on a Canadian station.

Incidentally, do you have a copy of this question exactly as it was asked, or are you just going on this girl's recollection of it?

Grazza said:

Incidentally, do you have a copy of this question exactly as it was asked, or are you just going on this girl's recollection of it?

I am going on her recollection, however, I have taken that test myself because I live in the same state and therefore was held to the same academic "standards" in high school, and I can recall answering questions with exactly that flaw. I know that throughout my high school years that kind of flaw was never addressed on SEVERAL different tests, and I have no doubt whatsoever that she took a test containing questions just like that as well.

I remember even interrupting to question the teacher about it. The teacher argued that the flawed question was not flawed and then I was quickly dismissed because this was a big official oh-so-important test that should not be interrupted.

It's when you have football coaches teaching this sort of stuff that you have to worry... In high school I had a football coach teaching my psychology and my sociology classes. He was very... "American." Still carries an active hate of communism, without a doubt, as if it's a live threat to our way of life here. He once stated that he believed homelessness is a result of mental illness, without exception. Poor people are sick, obviously, not unfortunate! People don't get screwed for no reason in this country!

So yeah, the education system IS a joke in this country and I am NOT blowing it out of proportion.

EDIT: You know, such a question would be a GREAT idea on a test if it was short-answer and not multiple choice. Sort of a "trick question" I suppose you'd call it, but a great test of knowledge on the difference between fact and opinion an one's ability to not be misled by such questions.

You know, such a question would be a GREAT idea on a test if it was short-answer and not multiple choice. Sort of a "trick question" I suppose you'd call it, but a great test of knowledge on the difference between fact and opinion an one's ability to not be misled by such questions.

That's a fantastic suggestion but children aren't taught to think that broadly. The whole system would have to be re-tooled just give average kids a fair chance.

It's totally ridiculous to talk about facts and opinions in relation to language structure and generic clauses. This is because a fact is something that is done, which is never part of language, and opinion, which is relative to a subject, is also not part of language that's out of context.

The only way to state facts, is to do it specifically, and then they must be taken as such. Linguistic objectivity is consensual, and you can't equate existence or "reality" with it.

AndrewB said:

On an unrelated topic, this is what I saw on a news promo on an American station last week: "Three dead after a carbon monoxide leak. What YOU can do to protect your family."

I know, I'm drudging up an old topic, but you would never see that kind of fear-mongering on a Canadian station.

Ever see Bowling for Columbine?

The premise was pretty much this:
- Media goes for sock value instead of journalism, only reporting on negative, frightening news for the most part
- Americans freak out and get paranoid
- Paranoid Americans start killing each other

It's a win-win situation. The media gets high ratings and the government has its citizens angry at each other instead of it. And the people...well they get screwed as usual.

While it's slow, I still see the Canadian media inching in that direction as well.

I have never seen a hint of that in Canadian media, ever.

Danarchy said:
Media goes for sock value

That must stink, unless well washed.

At least your teacher didn't try to convince you that Greenland was part of Canada.

What continent is Greenland in, anyway?

Not sure where Greenland is. Don't they have amusement park rides to teach you that stuff?

Greenland is owned by Denmark, actually. As for what continent, I'm guessing it's part of North America.

Greenland info here, here and here. Further links here.

Island vs Continent; a different view

I thought that a land mass could only be a continent if it contained more than one independent country.

Numbermind said:

I thought that a land mass could only be a continent if it contained more than one independent country.

Australia? Antarctica?

But hey, 5 out of 7 ain't bad!

like disgusting job interview questions:
1) What did you like the least about your last job?
2) Is always being a team player the right thing to do?
3) Is the customer always right?
4) When did you stop hitting your wife?

go apply at Walmart, it's worth your time to see just how absurd and ambivalent those questions are.

Arioch said:

Australia?

New Zealand, Tasmania.

Antarctica?

...is owned by oil companies.
No flag, no country; those are the rules that I've just made up.

I don't think this is important.

1. Public education will always be fucked up.
2. The dumb will get dumber.
3. The smart will get smarter.

There's no issue here. A person won't magically turn into an idiot because of public education. An idiot will remain an idiot even with the best education possible. Besides, people likely care about things like the media much more than the crap they're taught in schools.

Numbermind: "continent" may not be a very clearly defined concept, but your definition (based on political boundaries) seems to be at odds with everyone else's. I mean, by your definition Europe would have stopped being a continent if the Nazis had won WW2 (not that Europe should probably be regarded as a continent in any case...).

Regarding Antarctica, I suggest you look up the Protocol on Environmental Protection to the Antarctic Treaty (1991), which prohibits commerical exploitation of that continent.

BTW, I like cheese.