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Rob McKai

The Secret Levels In Doom 3

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Fredrik said:

No flamebait there.

Rob McKai said:

Mark my words, DOOM 3 WILL SUCK!

Rob McKai said:

When you get a life... get back to me. :)


Then what do you call that?
Flamebait or not, it doesn't belong in this forum.

Rob McKai said:

Cheers bud, maybe saying it will suck is a little harsh... but I do think there's a good chance of it being a let down.


That is what you should've said instead! Going on to a Doom3 forum and stating "IT WILL SUCK" isn't going to get you anywhere good.
"Mark my words, DOOM 3 WILL SUCK!" Doesn't sound like an opinion, but a fact when said like that.

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Shaviro said:

Then what do you call that?

Not very different from threatening to ban people.

"Mark my words, DOOM 3 WILL SUCK!" Doesn't sound like an opinion, but a fact when said like that.

It sounds like a confidently held and perhaps misinformed opinion, but not really like a statement of fact other than a fact quite specific to him. His choice of language was a bit over the top, yes, but it should be approached indulgently. It's better to argue against the reasoning that led him to his conclusion than arguing about his statement of a conclusion.

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Fredrik said:

Not very different from threatening to ban people.


I did not threaten to ban him, I informed him that what he was doing was not smart and it would be best to stop. Advice, not a threat. I don't even think he knew I could ban.

It's better to argue against the reasoning that led him to his conclusion than arguing about his statement of a conclusion.


It's better to try and tell him what is acceptable and what is not, then debate what is needed to debate.

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This is a Doom3 forum. You have to know and respect the fact that there are people on here who have a genuine interest in Doom3 and have been watching it develop for years...yes YEARS.
If you don't believe this game will be good well thats fine but you could have said someting like "I have a feeling people will be let down with this game" instead of "Mark my Words, Doom 3 will SUCK"

Thats just being waaay too opinionated and it is basically not fair to other forum regulars with their own opinions.

And as for "When you get a life... get back to me"
Have some fucking respect man!!!

Listen to Shaviros advice...

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Shaviro said:

Advice, not a threat.

"Make him an offer he can't refuse?" :)

It's better to try and tell him what is acceptable and what is not, then debate what is needed to debate.

I didn't say that. I said we should counter his arguments for his opinion as opposed to attacking his statement of it.

Again, his formulation was inappropriate, but giving the "ban advice" is an extreme counter-reaction.

Dubh said:

Thats just being waaay too opinionated and it is basically not fair to other forum regulars with their own opinions.

Saying that Doom 3 will "kick ass" is just as opinionated as claiming that it will suck. To be fair, shouldn't the people who say that Doom 3 will kick ass stop saying so in order not to offend those who think it will suck? This is a Doom 3 forum, but I don't see why either opinion would be less appropriate than the other as long as people argue for their opinion, which I find Rob did.

And as for "When you get a life... get back to me"
Have some fucking respect man!!!

Agreed. Insults have no place here.

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We're not banning here now, and the silly arguments will stop. Thanks.

As for stat intermission screen versus continuous progression... why not have a in-game cutscene between levels showing the doomguy in 3rd person view walking from the exit towards the entrance of the next level, while displaying stats on-screen.

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Mordeth said:

...stuff...

(Got too lazy to hit the back button)

The idea of a "pseudo-intermission" screen while showing the Doomguy progressing to the next level does seem rather Quake-ish. Don't you agree? I'm not saying that it's a bad idea inherently, but if you're talking a fixed camera on a pivotal axis going 180 degrees hanging from a piece of sky geometry, well, I think that would be kind of shabby. I think it would be cooler, instead, to have the stats saved to his PDA, and as he nears an exit, the stats pop up ala RtCW. Also, not to mention the fact that it would be rather dull if it was a type of "hubbed" gameplay (being able to go back and forth between levels) where that same camera view would be triggered every time he nears an exit.

However, I agree that the Metroid Prime sequence of returning to previous levels to get something you activated on another level and then to the beginning and back is also pretty monotonous... UNLESS there is something really big about to happen, like in the first big "hub" level of Hexen (Map02, forgot the name) where the player has to go through multiple subsections of the level and back to open that big exit door with all the monsters... Something like that, on a much GRANDER scale would, in my opinion, be worth my time.

Damn... It makes me want to try that shit out when Doom3 comes out.

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I liked the stats screen - really, I did, but I don't think it will fit in Doom 3. Doom 3 is trying to live up to the modern trend in games (the next level of immersion).

Now, a stats screen for the entire game once you've completed it, wouldn't hurt however.

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Well what I meant was that it would be (admittedly) humorous if the intermission camera caught a glimpse of the Doomguy nonchalantly walking into a dark corridor from bird's-eye view while being unrelentlessly pursued by a pinky demon, hence the "Quake-ish" comment... Although I didn't really see much of THAT stuff (maybe in user-made maps), it would just seem unnecessary. A cut-scene at the end of every map would be cool, though.

I agree with DSM, though, on the stats being displayed after completing the game; that'd be cool.

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I'm the one who always reads but never posts...but in this case, I'll make an exception.

I think it's safe to say that just about everyone here loves Doom...otherwise, you wouldn't be browsing here and you sure as hell wouldn't be a registered member. It amazes me how many large opinions you people make without actually having played the game. You hear a few rumors, a few factual statements, see some screenshots, and maybe even play UNFINISHED illegal demos...and...you think you can actually form some kind of intelligent opinion about it? Sorry, but I've seen some things I like and some things I DON'T like about the new Doom. But guess what? There are things I like and DON'T like about the original, but I still love the game as a whole. Let's give the "id stoning" a rest, shall we?


"Don't knock it till you try it." ;-)

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Don't they put a stats screen at the very end? That way you have to repeat the whole game when you see that after killing 50 hellspawnn you have 80% left.

:::Pats Prime on the head:::
Yea, C'mon dudes, play it first.

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Prime said:

*OMG, Intelligent stuff on DW? Unpossible!*

Dude, somebody needs to give you a medal.
/Pins a medal on Prime.

Don't they put a stats screen at the very end? That way you have to repeat the whole game when you see that after killing 50 hellspawnn you have 80% left.

It still gotta be better than no stats screen at all.

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Prime said:

I'm the one who always reads but never posts...but in this case, I'll make an exception.

I think it's safe to say that just about everyone here loves Doom...otherwise, you wouldn't be browsing here and you sure as hell wouldn't be a registered member. It amazes me how many large opinions you people make without actually having played the game. You hear a few rumors, a few factual statements, see some screenshots, and maybe even play UNFINISHED illegal demos...and...you think you can actually form some kind of intelligent opinion about it? Sorry, but I've seen some things I like and some things I DON'T like about the new Doom. But guess what? There are things I like and DON'T like about the original, but I still love the game as a whole. Let's give the "id stoning" a rest, shall we?


"Don't knock it till you try it." ;-)

Very well put. Props man. : )

EDIT:Oh yeah, and Laguna, I think its an awesome idea for the stats screen to be included in the PDA (It could even have the background from the orignal stat screens in some updated form for nostoglic purposes.. nevermind that idead sucks). Its a perfect way to comprimise the option into the game without ruining imersionn by forcing the player to watch it. If you want to, you can... but for people like me who don't want that cut between levels.. you don't have to. Great idea!

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They most certainly should NOT ditch the stats screen at the end of a map. Have some respect to the original game, for our sake and the sake of competition and urge to try to do better. I don't see a problem with continous gameplay, whatever that might be by whoevers definition, as long as you can IDCLEV (which includes oppurtunity to make demos like the originals of course). If they ditch ANY option you had in the originals, I will be VERY disappointed and my view on id Software will change, then they have no real clue what made the originals so great (part of the reason anyway). There better be at least 2 secret levels (or more), that are different, like the Wolfenstein maps in Doom2, or map31 from Alien Vendetta (hm???). I'm glad they take a more realistic approach on the gameplay tip, but there could still be elements of the originals as well, like...running is really fast (though you should get tired after maybe 20-30 seconds, except for DM), and uh...it's no problem facing several bad monsters at once, as long as you have the proper weapons and skills, to sum it up, id Software, you are welcome to ask me what you should do.

Keep the basics.

Edit, if you're holding 3 huge weapons like the BFG, Rocket Launcher (it's big right?) and whatever, running speed and amount of runnnig time before you get tired should both be reduced. Also, since you already can't hold more then 3 weapons, HAVE ALL WEAPONS VISIBLE AT ALL TIMES TO OTHER PLAYERS (like in Co-Op, and maybe even DM), for example, if you have a Shotgun, Chaingun, and Plasma Rifle, the Plasma Rifle could be strapped on to the back like a backpack, while the Shotgun and Chaingun could be hanging from your left/right shoulders, like a purse. Oh there's a bug, naturally there would be only 2 weapons hanging at a time...OOH SILLY ME. Anyway. All weapons should have a 'strap line', I don't know what they're called, or maybe not, but it's a possibility, so when you're holding the Shotgun, and change to Chaingun (which is hanging like a purse on your shoulder, so is the Shotgun, you're just HOLDING it, instead of it just hanging down), when you change, there's a cool animation for how you let go of the Shotgun, and grab the Chaingun, hard to explain, say the Shotgun is strapped to the back (with a strap-line that goes from above your right shoulder to below your left arm), when you change to the Shotgun you grab it like a ninjaman would grab his sword. There's my 2 cents.

Edit again. Had to fix a typo. While I'm at it, the above suggestion is from a drawing I did, to keep the idea around if I ever made my own game :-] Also, shells should be placed on your belt, and there's at least 50, if not 100 of them, you have at least 2 pistols at all times (in a 'holster' on your shoulders), and the Chaingun (and pistol?) ammo is hung like how Rambo does, from above right shoulder to below left shoulder. Think that's it... :-) I'm not sure of rockets and cells yet, simple solution would be this is the far future so rockets are the size of shells, the explosion isn't that huge anyway, and so on. Yeaaaaaaaaah.....................

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gemini09 said:

Bunch of stuff and Keep the basics.

They will have timed sprinting, but the focus on the game is to slow it down. This is done for the sake of the atmosphere. This is what Carmack said he would have chosen to do at the time if he could have with the technology. Its pretty silly if you really would be disapointed in id because they didn't make a clone of the first. Everyone take a deep breath and realize this isn't Doom 1.

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Yes but the fans of the old game are still around, and there aren't very few of us either, so they should try to please us more then the masses or reviewers or whatever. I don't mind if the speed of your running is slowed down, just not by much, and it somehow eventually ads up to still feel like the original Doom. I certainly hope the guys at id are checking in here for what WE think from time to time.

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gemini09 said:

Yes but the fans of the old game are still around, and there aren't very few of us either, so they should try to please us more then the masses or reviewers or whatever. I don't mind if the speed of your running is slowed down, just not by much, and it somehow eventually ads up to still feel like the original Doom. I certainly hope the guys at id are checking in here for what WE think from time to time.

Patrick Duffy does. Nothing wrong with wanting a little nostolgia, it just annoys me when peolple (not necassarily you) say "OMG, D3's gonna suck cause its not doom 1 or 2!"

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True - it's not DOOM I, but --

If the speed and thrills are that important to you (and those qualities CERTAINLY are to me), play the game in deathmatch.

I look forward to the dm segment of the game more than sp anyway. It will be pretty basic, but then, so was q3a, and it's my favorite dm experience to date, for sure.

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Well maybe because we feel strongly about our favourite game. I'm not saying we are right though :-) Just nervous and hopeful, and more things.

And I want Carmack to check in here, he's the main guy :-) Not that the rest shouldn't listen to our opinions on what the monsters look like compared to the originals, how we like or dislike the new looks, sounds, whatever. But it's still the engine that's the main thing, 52.5% is about the engine, the rest is shared by all the rest categories... :-)

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Thankfully for everyone, you can change the run speeds in the console. I think everyone should play it as it was intended at least once, which most will anyway.

Heh, JC would never post on these forums.

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That's good to hear.
And I just want him to read to check out what hardcore Doomers think, and caring more about our opinion then what Gamespot or whatever say of the newest beta or screenshots. Then I would lose alot of respect for him.

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dsm said:

It still gotta be better than no stats screen at all.

It could be better, there's your motivation fo playing it again!

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gemini09 said:

That's good to hear.
And I just want him to read to check out what hardcore Doomers think, and caring more about our opinion then what Gamespot or whatever say of the newest beta or screenshots. Then I would lose alot of respect for him.

Yeah, listening more to the hardcore fans would be nice wouldn't it?
Sadly, it doesn't work like this.
Id software is a company - their goal is to make money and you don't earn a profit if you only listen to a very narrow fanbase (like the doom community) instead of the entire fanbase (Id fans in general) plus potential fans (people who are not presently Id fans, but could be "converted" if you try to reach their preferences).

Gamers in general want realism in games - the original Doom games were as far removed from realism as you could possibly get; running speed was obnoxiously fast as was general maneuverability, killing the monsters was ridiculously easy (which helped make megawads such as Hell Revealed 1+2 popular because they'd pour hordes of braindead monsters at you).
Nowadays, people in general want a more "real" and immersive approach, hence Id tries to adresss what the general public likes, by taking the original Doom's concept and making it more "immersive" and, dare I say, "believable". They won't cash in on making a clone of Classic Doom, trust me on this.

And I doubt the general public would give two shits about stat screens.

I mean, I loved the stats screen too and I even loved the arcadey face in the hud (this was my biggest loss in Doom 3, when I realized it wouldn't make it back in). Still, I've learned to focus on what looks cool in Doom 3, rather than what bugs me - makes me a lot happier in general than walking about sulking about "bah! Doom 3 won't have a stats screen - teh suck!".

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Heres my two cents. Let them make the damn game and quit wining like a bunch of starwars forum fanboys, and play it. QUit living on every single nitpicky thing. Its not your game, just a game your highly interested in. Go out get laid, but get over it. I dont direct this at anyone in general nor do I aim it to flame any of you, but ITS JUST A GAME

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Dsm, I disagree with practically everything you said. I personally don't think id Software is the kind of company to follow trends, as you suggested. That said, when they showed off the demo at E3 or something, and when they occasionaly release new screenshots, obviously they will be curious to know what people think, and there, I hope they (Carmack and the rest) come here more often then any other page, because, I do not need to tell you why. Another 2 cents, there's my point of view, I'm not arguing with what you said.

Sniperfrommars1, yes you brought some ground-braking news. I think sex is the answer! I think you should inform Isreal and America about sex as well! I'm just mocking you because you don't see my points, and don't care as much about the game like myself and many others as well, so don't come here tell me or us to care as little as yourself, and yes it's just a game, people can still feel strongly about it, just like a favourite pair of shoes or a nice BMW.

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gemini09 said:

I hope they (Carmack and the rest) come here more often then any other page, because, I do not need to tell you why.

I hope they just continue working on the game instead of coming here to read through all of our whining bullshit.

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To be honest, it's stupid to hope for all these shared features between the classic Dooms and Doom3. From what we already know there is going to be hardly anything in common between them in terms of gameplay principles. In this respect, it sounds like Doom3 will be closer to Half Life than Doom1/2. Noting this, It's best to try and view Doom3 as a separate game set in the same universe and not as a direct continuation of the series, in my opinion.

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I wouldn´ t put it this way. Doom3 is what id Software would have made back in 1994 if they had the technology they have available today, they even stated this in interviews. It is DOOM, not just a game set in the same universe.

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Tetzlaff said:

I wouldn´ t put it this way. Doom3 is what id Software would have made back in 1994 if they had the technology they have available today, they even stated this in interviews. It is DOOM, not just a game set in the same universe.

That might be true, but it isn't what they made back then. What they did make back then seems to me to have little to do with what they are making now - in gameplay terms - with the exception of the universe and it's denizens.

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