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Cyb

U S A U S A (and britain too)

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FP! =P

Uh, ok. So, 17 out of thousands mistreat a few POWs, and you go nuts. What they did was wrong, ok I agree, and now they're paying for it. It's unfair to judge the entire military for the actions of a few. Plus, it's not like they beat them to death, contrary to what happens to most American POWs and hostages by the way, it says nothing to that effect from what you posted. It's clear the direction you want to take this. Hey, did you know shit like this has been going on in every war in history, in most cases to an extent even greater than this? OF course you did. Stop being silly.

God, it's not like they burned prisoners alive and then hung their bodies from ropes. Hm.

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gatewatcher said:

It's unfair to judge the entire military for the actions of a few.

No.

Hey, did you know shit like this has been going on in every war in history, in most cases to an extent even greater than this?

This argument wins the prize.

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gatewatcher said:

Retardation

So that makes it ok? That justifies it?

This is really quite awful.

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Fredrik said:

This argument wins the prize.

It's not really an argument, or an excuse. It's a fact. Are you denying it?

By the way, there's this Swedish kid at my school who's a total asshole and he beats kids up a lot then steals there wallets. Therefore, all Swedish people are wallet-stealing jerks. That must make sense to you, that's what you meant by "No."

Assmaster said:

So that makes it ok? That justifies it?
This is really quite awful.

Goddamnit, I HAVE ALREADY AGREED with you shitheads, yes it was completely uncalled for and wrong. I'M NOT STICKING UP FOR THEM. What I'm trying to tell you is that we're talking about 17 people here, the entire army didn't do this. So why should you crucify them? It's utter hypocrisy to single out the US in this matter and not acknowledge the fact that far more greater atrocity’s have been committed against American troops in Iraq. So much for human life as long as it's Americans being killed.

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gatewatcher said:

Plus, it's not like they beat them to death, contrary to what happens to most American POWs and hostages by the way


Rubbish. I don't for one second doubt that coalition troops haven't done stuff like this too. Who know's what else has happened in Iraq over the last few months. Unfortunately, I don't think it's much of a surprise though. When people have that sort of power over other helpless people they tend to do some pretty bad shit (like that psychology experiment in the prison years ago - can't remember it's name).

I wouldn't see this sort of thing as a reflection of the army as a whole though, but it certainly isn't in any way acceptable. What is frustrating though is the hypocrisy. Whenever Iraqi's are shown doing this sort of thing it is all over the media and jumped on by politicians. Anybody who thinks that coalition troops don't do equally as horrific things is deluding themselves.

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Of course it is. We're supposed to be supporting and defending our own country. Politicians don't generally go out and say that everything we've done is wrong

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I think we should just keep the speculation out of this and focus on the facts please.

Start arguing about things that cannot be proved either way and I'll just get rid of it.

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No matter who is doing this. it is WRONG to tread prisoners like this. Especially when you are invading a country because you say you defend democracy.

By the way, is that little boy a girl?

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Still this does put the "disengagement plan" in serious jeopardy.

As mentioned in one of the articles the news will spread. Soon Iraqi with anti-american or anti-coalition views will be able to use this incident in their propagandizing. There will be a call for justice from the Iraqi.

If the US army or any other agency involved in this incident are not able to bring the responsible to justice I guess we will be seeing some kind of Iraqi retribution. Mainly by increased attacks against americans.

In the past such minor atrocities tended to get lost in the "fog of war" only to be dug up in some enlightened future. Nowadays the "fog of war" tends to clear up very quickly.

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gatewatcher said:

It's not really an argument, or an excuse. It's a fact. Are you denying it?

You're using this fact as an excuse/argument, which is prize-worthy.

By the way, there's this Swedish kid at my school who's a total asshole and he beats kids up a lot then steals there wallets. Therefore, all Swedish people are wallet-stealing jerks. That must make sense to you, that's what you meant by "No."

No, but Sweden hasn't claimed it sent him there to stop wallet-stealing. Sending in an army with the alleged mission of liberating the people from the torture and suppression they have been subjected to and then iterating similar deeds is utterly hypocritical. As for responsibility, this is a critical undertaking. If the US can't control its operations, it shouldn't conduct them. As simple as that.

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gatewatcher said:

FP! =P

Uh, ok. So, 17 out of thousands mistreat a few POWs, and you go nuts. What they did was wrong, ok I agree, and now they're paying for it. It's unfair to judge the entire military for the actions of a few. Plus, it's not like they beat them to death, contrary to what happens to most American POWs and hostages by the way, it says nothing to that effect from what you posted. It's clear the direction you want to take this. Hey, did you know shit like this has been going on in every war in history, in most cases to an extent even greater than this? OF course you did. Stop being silly.

God, it's not like they burned prisoners alive and then hung their bodies from ropes. Hm.


just for the record in my first post I made no accusations of any kind, including those you are insinuating. I'm quite aware this doesn't reflect the entire military, and I'm quite aware we aren't the first or last army who will treat POW's in such a way. That hardly justifies the behavior, but you already said that.

I did however say (sarcasticly) that it made me 'proud to be american' because these troops are americans and their actions, while they may not represent what each of us would do, still reflect upon us. And in this case that reflection is quite a poor one.

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Support the troops!

The troops are idiots.

When you provide idiots with guns and tell them to guard defenceless people, you're asking for trouble.

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have you had to endure the pressure of being "in country" for months while being shot at by people? then you capture one, your prolly pissed. you might fuck with them a little. this is not really an excuse, but .....

EDIT: i want a gun

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Oh boo hoo. Yeah it's wrong, but this stuff happens all the time, regardless of whose military is responsible for it.

I like the alarmism though, it's funny.

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Dittohead said:

regardless of whose military is responsible for it

Saddam <---> US

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We need to get the hell out of there before another My Lai Massacre happens. The longer troops are kept in guerilla war situations, the more inhuman their behavior becomes.

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Quasar said:

We need to get the hell out of there before another My Lai Massacre happens. The longer troops are kept in guerilla war situations, the more inhuman their behavior becomes.


vietnam and chetchnya are instances of this

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war is war, and war is hell. so what do you expect? tea parties and funny gas? I have a friend who was a witness and reported some similar incidents being preformed by a officer. well he had motive because he is no longer on the front lines, he isnt facing charges at all. and i dout he would do anything like that, he just happened to witness it.

any and all world powers abuse their power. USA is no different in that respect than other great powers.

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Quasar said:

We need to get the hell out of there before another My Lai Massacre happens. The longer troops are kept in guerilla war situations, the more inhuman their behavior becomes.


yeah great idea, let's invade a country and say we're going to fix it up all nice but then give up after a couple months because it's too hard. that'll go over well.

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Cyb said:

yeah great idea, let's invade a country and say we're going to fix it up all nice but then give up after a couple months because it's too hard. that'll go over well.

Or we'll just wait a few years and let the death toll keep mounting.

Although it's really a catch-22 because going in there was fucking stupid in the first place. Pull out now, and look like the irresponsible superpower that we're rapidly becoming, or stay in and let more and more people die.

Thanks, Dubya.

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if we leave the entire country of iraq is totally fucked since we pretty much removed any semblance of government and order they had. right now it's being held together by pure force and the fact that their militiants don't outnumber our troops (though they are certainly killing a good number). this would amount to leaving the country to die and totally screw them over and put them in a much, much worse position than they were in before we blew it up, which will only further the hatred that area of the world has for the US. in the long run pulling out before everything is wrapped up (and don't kid yourself anyway, we'll be in iraq for the next 15 years) will be worse.

yeah, we shouldn't have trounced in in the first place, but unless you plan on inventing a time machine that revelation doesn't mean crap.

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Leaving is not an option, not because it would throw Iraq into chaos, but because all the efforts of the neo-conservatives would have been in vain. There is oil to control and reconstruction money to be made. WMDs and democracy in the region ain't got shit to do with it.

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DaJuice said:

Leaving is not an option, not because it would throw Iraq into chaos...

Iraq is already in chaos.

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MaximusNukeage said:

have you had to endure the pressure of being "in country" for months while being shot at by people? then you capture one, your prolly pissed. you might fuck with them a little. this is not really an excuse, but .....

EDIT: i want a gun

That's bull, the scum involved are not front line troops and probably never saw any action in their lives. And who are these civilians that told them to soften up the prisoners prior to interrogation.

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Apparently, one of the officers involved is claiming that he can't be held responsible, because he had recieved no training or relevant instructions regarding the treatment of POW's. WTF? Do military personnel really have to be spoon-fed to avoid this kind of incident in the future?

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Sounds like the kind of guy who would sue McDonalds because he spilled a cup of coffee on himself.

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Ichor said:

Sounds like the kind of guy who would sue McDonalds because he spilled a cup of coffee on himself.


you are basically speaking about any americans...

As a non-american native, I was really surprised to see how easily american people would sue anybody for whatever reason. The main reason being easy-money.

I have even seen people trying to tease dogs in order to get bitten... crazy country dude...

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