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Goliath

Ruining Doom

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Doom is one of the greatest if not the greatest game of all time. With Doom3 coming closer to release I'm beginning to wonder how will the new game compare with the old. Graphics isn't everything and what happens if they ruin the game or even worse the series. As much as I would like Doom3 and can't wait for its release I'm starting to think that maybe it would be better if they just let the game alone and just let it live on with the first two games. Man there is alot leaning on the shoulder of the Doom3 team. Does anyone else feel this way?

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Heh, my thoughts are that Doom 3 is going to revolutionize the gaming industry just like Doom did so long ago. That's what I think. The storyline is great, the demons and monsters couldn't look better, the environments are going to be the best ever, and the game as a whole is awesome. I find it odd that as release gets closer you find this, when up until recently my excitement had really died down and has now risen again.

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I've wanted a Doom 3 ever since I played Doom 2 back in '94-95, I've endured a lot of frustrations (namely when it became clear to me that Id didn't seem to want to do another Doom game) - I sure as Hell don't want Id to just leave Doom and Doom 2 alone just because so many years have passed.

Having said that, I don't believe Doom 3 will be the perfect Doom game I hoped a potential "Doom 3" would be, but I gotta admit that a lot of the things on my "Doom 3 wish list" actually made it into Doom 3, so I'm definitely excited about it.

Stuff like the slower pace, the fewer monsters and the linear levels don't really bug me as much as I'm much more concerned with how satisfying and fun it will be to shoot the enemies.

I doubt it'd ruin the old games for me. RtCW didn't ruin Wolfenstein 3d, even though I've got plenty of things to criticize RtCW for in the "compared to the old one" department.

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right but if they do Doom3 wrong or really bad, a game can look great and still be bad, don't you think that it would stain the series and and really hurt your appreciation for the early doom games.

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Canceling the game at this point and leaving it with just the two games will ruin the series.

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Goliath said:

right but if they do Doom3 wrong or really bad, a game can look great and still be bad, don't you think that it would stain the series and and really hurt your appreciation for the early doom games.

I really doubt Id would make a bad game if they've spent this long time on it.

The only game Id have ever made which I thought was "bad" was Quake 3 Arena and this game has quite a fanbase. Looking at online forums, it looks like Quake 3 Arena is Id's most successful game ever (which it certainly isn't).
In Doom 3, they're making a very well-polished game - yes, it supposedly doesn't have any revolutionary gameplay ideas, but it has reportedly an extremely fun multiplayer mode, which pretty much seems to confirm to me that the game will be good.

The single player aspect is a different thing, but I gotta admit that after reading about the sp campaign, I have a hard time imagining how I won't be able to like it.

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"Graphics isn't everything"

Doom was -ALL- about graphics, sound, and immersion. Many people are angry because gun X doesnt work like it does in doom 1, many people are angry because all the monsters dont look the exact same from the previous games. However, no game, except "Atari arcade classics action pak 43" should sell on nostalgia or the succes of its predecessors.


Doom 3 isnt just a Quake 3 doom mod with dynamic lighting, and some fans need to face that fact.

"Man there is alot leaning on the shoulder of the Doom3 team."

Not really, financialy, id software makes a killing with both their engines and royalties, and IP out sourcing. Not too many programmers can afford a ferrari, or enough cash to build a rocket to go into space, but john carmack can. And he owns much less than 50% of the company. While no one knows how much id makes, being it as they are privately owned. I wouldnt be suprised if the extremely small gaming company of less than 20 people working for it at any time, has made over 100 million in the past few years.

Their past success with games, along with the fact that only quake 2 and doom 2 can be considered less revolutionary then there other games, means even a mild disappointment wouldnt affect them too greatly.

Doom 3 has taken id longer then all of their other games, and longer then the full development time of doom 1 and 2 combined, quake 1 and 2 combined as well.

They are making this game because they want to.

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Yeah Quake 3 was also a bad game in my opinion, but i still dont think the Quake series is ruined for me because of it (Love Quake 2 - one of my favs of all time). Doom 3 will obviously not live up to everyones expectations but its still gonna be a good game and from what ive seen of the movies, the alpha etc, i know i'm not gonna be disappointed even if its nothing like doom 1, its still doom to me.

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Okay look at it this way..
but first I jsut want to say that i have been a very good doom fan and I'm going to get doom3 just because it looks great and hell it is Doom, so im not being a rantter.
...Doom is still being played 10 years later with a very strong fan base. I keep reading all these posts about how older games are better than newer games and how remakes just ruin the original and i started to get worried when i thought that this might ruin doom for people. Honestly can you see yourself talking about Doom3 10 years from now because I can't. It's weird because you can make new games like Halo2 and things will be fine because fans no what they are going to get. Same thing with every other game i can think of, GTA, Grand Turismo, UT, and so on but not Doom. See when i think of doom i think back to when i was little and all the great memories i made and I think of the plasma rifle and the bloody face. Not some high tech horror-thriller. I think of ...well "Doom" and i just hope that the desginers don't stray to far fromm their roots.

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Yeaa im just worried about how gay the weapons will be and if it will be kickass shooting the enemies, I think it will be fun killing enemies but I deffinatly have my doubts on the weapons.

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Goliath said:

I keep reading all these posts about how older games are better than newer games and how remakes just ruin the original and i started to get worried when i thought that this might ruin doom for people.

If you want to hear my honest, humble opinion, I think that people who make such posts as you describe are people who have failed to adapt to the chainging face of video games.

Modern computer games are as popular as ever with a lot more people playing them than back in the day. Computer gaming is no longer an activity for anti-social people alone, but is now widely accepted. So what if a few old-school gamers don't like the direction modern games are pursuing? Well tough shit fellas, because computer gaming companies are developing games so that they appeal to the market as a whole and just because you don't like the direction games are moving nowadays, it doesn't necessarily mean that the new games are bad.

People need to get a grip - if they don't like the remake of their favourite game... well... just go back to your beloved original and ignore the remake - it's really quite simple.

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dsm said:

I doubt it'd ruin the old games for me. RtCW didn't ruin Wolfenstein 3d, even though I've got plenty of things to criticize RtCW for in the "compared to the old one" department.


you can't really compare Wolfenstein 3D to Return to Castle Wolfenstein because id Software didn't really have much to do with the game (as far as I understand). I don't think that id Software had anything to do with the storyline for RtCW or anything like that. I think the only thing they had to do with the game was licensing the Q3A engine to Grey Matter Studios

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How can Doom3 ruin Doom1 and 2? Is it going to seek out and delete all my old doom files?

Anyway, I imagine that Doom3 wont be anything too special. Im sure I'll enjoy playing it, and perhaps even making maps and textures (mmm, heightmaps). But I dont think it's going to revolutionize the industry. Id hasnt described anything so far that hasnt been done in another game. It pretty much sounds like quake2 + extra scare.

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oscillik said:

you can't really compare Wolfenstein 3D to Return to Castle Wolfenstein because id Software didn't really have much to do with the game (as far as I understand). I don't think that id Software had anything to do with the storyline for RtCW or anything like that. I think the only thing they had to do with the game was licensing the Q3A engine to Grey Matter Studios

Whether you can compare the two is up to debate if you ask me - they're both set in WW2 for instance :-P

Anyways, Id licensed the Q3A engine as well as gave Graymatter the Doom 3 camera system to play with. Also, Id gave them a bit of advice on the direction to make it more in tune with the original (Graymatter originally planned to start the game with a Normandy beach landing map where you would find some enigma machine thing, instead of starting it with you escaping from Castle Wolfenstein) - draw your own conclusions.

Even so, I don't think the mere fact that Id didn't develop it means that it doesn't warrant comparison with the original. I spent a great deal of time comparing the two.

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I think that RTCW is a very well done game and on my top 10 games of all time just because it was cool and was really hard and at that time i wasa bored of most games. I think that it was better than the original, no matter who made it. I'm just worried about Doom3, it isn;t that i hate new games or can't make the "switch" I'm just don't want them to mess up Doom3. I've waited to long.

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Simply put, you can't at all expect a new game today to be what it was back in 1992. I think dsm was right and said it best, that people need to get a grip. The fear for a long time since Doom 3 was announced was "will it live up to the original?" The answer is yes. But people seem to freak out and spaz when "omfg that shotgun isn't the same!!! omfg I don't like the cybernetic legs on the cybie!!! omfg its not the same! omfg1!!1!#@" which is shear stupidity. Doom is more than 10 years old now, you can't in anyway expect for everything to be the same or it'd be very, very boring to play. Having new things to be found and modifications done to returning monsters is an element Id Software is using to their advantage, by adding more of a shock factor, so you aren't seeing the same thing again as you did 10 years ago. Compared to what it was then, we are in the future. Things change in the future, and sometimes those changes are for the better, sometimes for the worst. But you can't judge those changes based solely on screenshots and biased opinions. Don't knock it until you try it.

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Okay you guys are right...for every game except doom. I usually hate people who do the same thing I'm doing right now but Doom isn't just a game it is a culural land mark, being reconized by about every person on the planet, old, young, everybody... and well you guys know my arguement no need to repeat myself.

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Anyway, I imagine that Doom3 wont be anything too special. Im sure I'll enjoy playing it, and perhaps even making maps and textures (mmm, heightmaps). But I dont think it's going to revolutionize the industry. Id hasnt described anything so far that hasnt been done in another game. It pretty much sounds like quake2 + extra scare. [/B][/quote]I agree, I fear it will just be a highly polished FPS with an impressive lighting system. I guess the physics engine is kind of cool but nothing that sets it apart from any other FPS with a physics engine in it. Hell on the Xbox trailer when the the zombies got gibbed I thought it looked really cheesy, I remember the old doom when you hit a zombie or an imp with a rocket or they got blown up by a barrel it was very gratifying. I loved to see the chunks go sliding across the floor with the concusion from the explosion. It seems on Doom 3 the gibbing is almost scripted, like no matter how you blew them up it would be the same everytime(I hated that about RTCW and a few other games). I could be wrong about the whole thing but I wish game developers would concentrate on the little things a little more , Im sure the new lighting system and most of the new monster designs will be very cool but I dont think that alone will carry the game(yes I understand it has story and plot and all that good stuff). I have played games that are basically clones of another game but had more detail to certain aspects of the game and I thought the game rocked because of it. I guess what Im really scared of is they are using the name Doom to sell the game and putting a new lighting system in it and calling it done. I always thought what made the old Dooms so fun is one it simplicity and general I dont give a f%&k attitude, two all the little details that pulled it together to make one of the most memorable gaming experiences that I have ever come across. Sure the old Doom revolutionized gaming but what made it fun back then and now is the little details in the game play - I just hope they didn't leave that part out and use a gimmick as the selling point.

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I don't see much of anything "revolutionary" they can do with the gameplay or general enjoyment of the game... it's just about graphics and atmosphere. You'd think just because the first Doom was miles ahead of anything else, that they'd want to have the same impact with Doom3... but I don't really think it's about technology. Err, forgot where I was going with this. Let me start over.

I can see where you expect disappointment to come from somewhere when you finally do experience this game. Hell, I know I will just for the plain fact that nothing has yet compared to the initial Doom craze I went through. And to tell you the truth: I haven't seen much yet, gameplay-wise, that separates it from a basic amalgam of FPS action and Survival-Horror. Sadly, game technology is catching up in areas that Doom3 was supposed to rise above the pack-- that window is closing fast, and Doom's "cutting-edge appeal" is being lessened.

But it's not like Id has somehow had tools that no one else has had available. It's what they've done with the available technology-- their technique, if you will-- that has made them successful. I truly do think that there will be something about this game that will get my adrenalin going.

Not sure if that was any clearer.

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Goliath said:

Okay you guys are right...for every game except doom. I usually hate people who do the same thing I'm doing right now but Doom isn't just a game it is a culural land mark, being reconized by about every person on the planet, old, young, everybody... and well you guys know my arguement no need to repeat myself.


The problem with your argument though is that for it to be what you want it to be, they'd basically have to be putting out the original DooM again. Somethings only happen once, my friend, you have to accept that. There's just no way that Doom 3 can be the original Doom. No game can be another game, for that matter. Just gonna have to cope man, gonna have to.

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Who cares what Doom 3 is, it doesn't retroactively delete Doom / Doom 2 from your hard drive.

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As it's been said you just can't compare Doom 3 to the original. But will it ruin the series? Um, No. Way.

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Melfice said:

The problem with your argument though is that for it to be what you want it to be, they'd basically have to be putting out the original DooM again. Somethings only happen once, my friend, you have to accept that. There's just no way that Doom 3 can be the original Doom. No game can be another game, for that matter. Just gonna have to cope man, gonna have to.


Thats fine, but is it right to make a Doom3 or just leave it alone. That was the what I was getting at.

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its not about what the creators aim to make often-times either, sometimes they just happen. doom3 will be better than the original in every way imaginable, but the original doom was simple, great at the time, and it hit a very special spot in gamers' sweet toothes that made it the best, and you just never know when that will happen, when a near-perfect game wil crystalize before the designers' eyes', and there you have a great game. lets just hope.

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Goliath said:

Thats fine, but is it right to make a Doom3 or just leave it alone. That was the what I was getting at.


It's a game, not Mother Terissa's grave... even then, I couldn't care less about it.

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Goliath said:

Thats fine, but is it right to make a Doom3 or just leave it alone. That was the what I was getting at.

If id made a game soley on what fans wanted, and left aside the reasons THEY want to make it, we'd have the equivilent of Marilyn Manson's past two albums, or St. Anger from Metallica.

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I think by the time we start playing it all the 'what ifs' will go out the window and we'll just be concentrating on enjoying what we see/how we're gonna survive such and such a level. May not be completely on topic but this has happened to me on many anticipated games: Trying to get from point a to point b/of course enjoying the details.

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Goliath said:

Thats fine, but is it right to make a Doom3 or just leave it alone. That was the what I was getting at.

It really doesnt matter m8y, If ID wants to make another Doom game its there choice alone, its gonna make no difference to them whether the fans like it or not aslong as they believe theyve made a good game and are satified with it.

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How could doom3 ruin the great doom and doom2? if you don't like doom3, don't play it. it's not a virus that'll infect your precious doom and doom2 floppies. Doom and doom2 will be the same, no matter what doom3 is like.

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I actually kindof hoped that DOOM 3 would be a mixture of UDOOM, Doom2, and Final Doom. Only they would connect the stories (somehow) instead of making them seperate like they did before. And if they were going to name it "Doom 3" than it shuld have had a different storyline. THats a little misleading naming something teh 3rd of a series when it's really just a retelling of the first one. They should have named it "Doom: _______" < something.

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