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Vile1011

Episode 3

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Erm, right. Sandy got, but Carmack didn't. I tought the thing was about Sandy. My bad. Hey, even Adrian Carmack got a song (e2m2 and d2map25) but John didn't. Weird.
And Kyle-I know that none of the maps in e4 was done by Sandy, I was trying to figure out where the player is present in those levels (according to the plot). Anyways, I guess if Sandy would make some e4 levels than we probably wouldn't have any damn idea where the setting is, hehe. Oh oh, You forgot Tim Willits.

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Nmn said:

Oh oh, You forgot Tim Willits.

And Dr. Sleep. John Anderson that is.

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Oh No Its Kyle said:
EDIT: On an off topic note I just realised that Carmack didn't get a song named after him but everyone else did (except Bobby, who made the songs). WTF?

Bobby Prince said about Deep into the Code (D_E3M3):
If everyone at id Software worked as long and hard as John Carmack, id Software would be absolutely untouchable by any competition. Everyone else at id Software would answer this by saying that they have a life outside of developing games! John would answer that he does too, but he'd rather be programming all of the time :) The reason I bring this up is that while I was at id during the development of DOOM, I stayed in the office many, many hours myself (after all, that's where all of my transplanted music toys were located). As a result of long hours at the office, John and I were often there at the same wee hours of the night. John would only leave his office to nab a coke or run to the mens' room -- that is except when he had something special programmed and wanted someone to see it. Those kinds of things happen a lot around John, too. He is always coming up with some cool addition to his engines. Many times in those wee hours, I would come to a point where I couldn't make positive progress toward completing a song or a sound effect. I would go out into the then main room where a pool table sat and just roll the balls around the table. I could look into John's office and he would be sitting there in a world of his own, oblivious to anything else going on. When I worked on this song, I took a break at the pool table and saw John working away. That's when the name of this song hit me.

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I didn't know that earlier, but now I can say-Carmack owns, damnit.

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Personally, I thought original DOOM Eps One through Three were what MADE Doom. They, to me, define everything that made Doom good--good level design, interesting challenges, fast-paced gameplay, and they were kinda spooky besides. Episode four, on the other hand, was kind of unbalanced IMO. I played through all four episodes on the same
difficulty setting, and it seemed to me that in Episode Four the maps suddenly jumped in difficulty. But furthermore many of the maps seemed to me to not have a "fine polish" so to speak. They weren't as interesting to explore and traverse as the episode 1-3 maps. Some of them seemed more like a chore, really. The episodes seemed more like a fan-made WAD than something produced by id themselves (As well, I didn't like the ending. More on this in a moment).

Doom II, while fun, was also a definite downward step in level design quality.

Now, storyline wise, I think "Thy Flesh Consumed" was meant to be a kind of bridge between Doom I and Doom II, possibly detailing how the Doom Guy got back to Earth (though that doesn't necessarily make sense since that was explained at the end of "Inferno"). If I remember correctly, the first couple of maps had a "Hell" theme, but it becomes more Earthly near the end. But I personally tend to think of Thy Flesh Consumed as either non-canon, or as an alternate take on Inferno, Except for the ending text.

Speaking of the ending text... that ending in particular doesn't really sit well with me, to be honest. Just reading it, the ending seems like it's just one big attempt to justify the inclusion of the entire episode, and furthermore I find it hard to take seriously, one because of the mention of "more potential pain and gibbitude" (Okay, GIBBITUDE? My suspension of disbelief just cracked), two because of the very last line:

NEXT STOP, HELL ON EARTH! [Sorry guys, but we just HAD to insert
a plug for Doom II!]

And finally, because the dead rabbit at the end of Episode Three just
COINCIDENTALLY happens to be the Doom Guy's pet. Come ON--that's something George Lucas would come up with! Just because you see a dead rabbit doesn't mean it has to be a particularly SIGNIFIGANT dead rabbit! Now I know some people will think I'm nuts, but to me, explaining who the rabbit was kinda cheapened the ending of Inferno.

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JamesEightBitStar said:

Personally, I thought original DOOM Eps One through Three were what MADE Doom. They, to me, define everything that made Doom good--good level design, interesting challenges, fast-paced gameplay, and they were kinda spooky besides. Episode four, on the other hand, was kind of unbalanced IMO. I played through all four episodes on the same
difficulty setting, and it seemed to me that in Episode Four the maps suddenly jumped in difficulty. But furthermore many of the maps seemed to me to not have a "fine polish" so to speak. They weren't as interesting to explore and traverse as the episode 1-3 maps. Some of them seemed more like a chore, really. The episodes seemed more like a fan-made WAD than something produced by id themselves (As well, I didn't like the ending. More on this in a moment).

But they were also fan-made, I mean:
it had 3maps fra fans. And shawn green's first doom map is in the episode (e4m3). To me episode 4 is cool and almost beat the original episodes (maps like e4m1, e4m2, e4m6, e4m8). :)


Doom II, while fun, was also a definite downward step in level design quality.


Remember doom2 were also rushed alot. In doom 1 they spend a year to make 27maps, and with doom 2 8months for 32maps (30 kinda, the wolfenstein maps don't look like they took more than one day to make).

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Torn said:

But they were also fan-made, I mean:
it had 3maps fra fans. *snip*


Torn, dear friend, you're messing your fine Danish with messy English again! Tsk, tsk, tsk. What skal I do...

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Torn said:

Remember doom2 were also rushed alot.

I never got exactly why id decided to halfass Doom2 the way they did. They spend a whole year on Doom and four months short of a year on the sequel - it does not compute.

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I beat episode 3 after I read this thread just out of curiosity. The boss definitely sucked balls. Too easy on HMP.

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Okay now. My turn, suckers!

First: Doom1 is better than Doom2 (crowd cheers)
Second: UDoom is better than Doom1 (Crowd holds in stagnation)

Now wait a minute... why? Because it gives you an additional episode you don't have to play. Still, it is possible to play it through, so IMHO UDoom is better than Doom1, cos it's just Upgraded Doom1... Phew.

Third: E1 roxors - there's no way arguing that, right? RIGHT?

But as I like 100% of E1, the other episodes come in "acceptation percentage" as follows:

E2 - 95% (Turbo-good music, superb boss, but shitty boss arena, and an "arcade" Secret level that doesn't fit)
E3 - 60% (As you said: tons of misalignments. Doom was never perfect in this matter, but in some places Sandy beats his personal records. Overall weak level look, but the atmosphere is still decent)
E4 - 75% (Now I really like that episode. It's not as interesting as the fisrt two, and does not present any new textures and music, but some maps are really good (those by Romero I suppose). But the lack of new boss at the end hurts.)

Hope I made my statement clear, and someone is interested enough to read it.

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I always figured E4 was to show what you can do with just stock Doom 1.

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insertwackynamehere said:

The reason E4 didn;t have a new boss was because that would have involved changing the engine, and back than expansion packs weren't that complex.



Some changes were made to the engine anyway to add the new levels so the code for a new boss wouldn't have been such a big problem. But don't forget that somebody actually would have had to design the new boss ans I think that was what kept them from adding one.

But why do you all complain about such a non-issue? It was supposed to be a free bonus episode and in that regard it fully succeeded by giving us 9 very good new levels. Nobody was required to do this.

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WHO THE HELL KEEPS DELETING MY POSTS?

originally posted by me:
You shut up you drooly-wooly smacktard; E4 was actually pretty good :)

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Nmn said:

a "fourth damnation" as the endtext was saying.

\

Um I don't think the text at the end of Episode 4 mentions any such thing.

And - the way the ending fleshes out, it seems to me that it takes place on Earth. The ending seems to hint at a slightly changed ending from the original DOOM ending, episode 3.

In Episode 3, you get home and realize (in shock) that the place is over-run. In Episode 4, what I gather from it (the ending) is that you get to earth (after episode 3) and "it seems" that the demons came ahead of you, and blah blah, you beat them. Then, in the second paragraph (as I recall, could be wrong) they start talking like - hey, this isn't all though - the whole EARTH is over-run, the cities and all, not just this place you've just fought through.

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mje said:

Um I don't think the text at the end of Episode 4 mentions any such thing.

The Episode 4 end text says:
The spider mastermind must have sent forth its legions of hellspawn before your final confrontation with that terrible beast from hell. but you stepped forward and brought
forth eternal damnation
and suffering upon the horde as a true hero would in the face of something so evil.

Errr.. right. Brought forth the damnation. Not the 4th damnation. Right.

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E1 = Nostalgia.
I can't play this episode without somewhere feeling like I'm 14 years old and playing on my older brother's '486 with pc speaker sounds again. This episode is easily the one that seems the most "believable" and it's nicely spooky with black hallways and tech.

E2 = Favouritism.
I simply love this episode. My favourite map is definitely E2M2 - navigating through a crate maze for the first time and hearing all those imps growl sure was creepy and E2M7 holds a special place in my heart (nostalgia once again - first map where I got the invulnurability powerup. Played it at my brother's and I loaded a saved game and wound up in this map). I like E2 because of its classy mix of tech base and Hell environments. Truly fucked up in a really cool sort of way.

E3 = Hell.
The very first time I started out in E3M1, I was overwhelmed. I think it was the textures that did it; starting out in this large courtyard with the floor made out of intestines (I thought that was what it was anyway). This level made a lasting impression on me. The maps were fun and even very spooky and how could I forget House of Pain? This level truly brought imaginative ideas of torment to my mind - a torture house of Hell. And of course, Warrens is classic. Teh win!
But then, spidey at the end was a huge letdown.

---

E4 = What?
I have NO idea where E4 fits in. You beat E3, read that now you're back on Earth and all is well...until you see the blazing city with the rabbit trophy in front. And then you end up in Woodvile Gone Crazy, WTF!?
I believe Thy Flesh Consumed came far too late to leave any lasting impression on me, and I was thoroughly disgusted with how it didn't fit into the story in any way. The maps might of been good, but frankly, I just saw them as a bunch of standard, surreal Doom maps.

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You're right--E4 totally ruined the intricate plot the masters at id had woven together. All the subtle nuances and plot twists--where the fuck were they in E4? What a bunch of dumbasses.

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E1 - Phobos
E2 - Demios
E3 - Hell
E4 - City on Earth, trying to stop the horde of monsters before they spread farther.

My take on the whole no new boss thing is he thought the Spider Mastermind was the one controlling everything and he was wrong. This is very apparent in Doom 2 since you fight a few of them. The Spider Masterminds never were anything but another demonic lacky for hell. So, thus, when you fight the one at the end of E4 it's just the leader of that platoon if you will.
And who gives a shit wether or not there was a new boss? You want a new boss, program it yourself you fucking whiner.

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Oh No Its Kyle said:

E1 - Phobos
E2 - Demios
E3 - Hell
E4 - City on Earth, trying to stop the horde of monsters before they spread farther.


Word.

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I don't see that ep3 is bad in any way. Actually e3m2 is my second favorite map on the original doom (first being e1m7). Yeah, maybe it wasn't very pleasing to the eyes, but the gameplay remained pretty good. Except for the last boss, that indeed sucked ass (or maybe what id was trying to say was that the spider mastermind was a defenseless wimp, and that you had obliterated all of its defenses)

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Eh, it's harder to beat than a cyberdemon I guess. I mean, I know it doesn't take as much damage as a cyberdemon, but it's harder to dodge for sure.

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It depends on the situation. With BFG it's cake. Without it it's tougher. And pistol start is actually pretty tough on that map for me today, so back then it would have been murder. But who pistol-started back then? :P

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