Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
Chubzdoomer

DOOM 3 MAP EDITOR ?

Recommended Posts

I wonder how complicated it will be, and yes, I am talking about the one shipping with the game (supposedly). :)

Hopefully it wont be too bad - and I think making DOOM and DOOM 2 levels is a surreal experience.

Thinking about making DOOM 3 levels sends a -30 degree chill down my spine......

Share this post


Link to post
BNA! said:

Think Quake3++ and you'll have the answer.


I have Quake 3, but I have never tried making levels for it.

Is it hard?

Share this post


Link to post

radiant isn't too hard... but making good levels can be.

I think doom3 will be substantially harder, we're finally getting into the age where mapping is straying away from "making a blueprint in highschool shop class" to being an actual ART. I know the geometry in newage games scares the hell out of me, and I've been a mapper since the original dooms... I can make great layouts and balanced maps, but I don't think I can make the complex environments that are becoming the standard of todays maps.

Share this post


Link to post
TwiNCannoN said:

radiant isn't too hard... but making good levels can be.


Too true ;)

TwiNCannoN said:

I think doom3 will be substantially harder, we're finally getting into the age where mapping is straying away from "making a blueprint in highschool shop class" to being an actual ART.


I believe we'll get bombarded with maps heavily suffering from a "swinglight syndrom" or even worse - a "multiple colored overlapping swinglight syndrome".
After that we'll suffer from maps so fully stacked with physics objects that your comp will come to an halt if you accidentally shoot the environment.
I can think of worse things, but after all that we should see "seasoned" mappers to come up with amazing work, I'm very sure about that.

TwiNCannoN said:

I know the geometry in newage games scares the hell out of me, and I've been a mapper since the original dooms... I can make great layouts and balanced maps, but I don't think I can make the complex environments that are becoming the standard of todays maps.


You have to stray away from the idea of mapping everything out in a level editor. Especially Doom3 heavily relies on traditional 3D modelling skills, preferably in LightWave.
Once you get the hang of working with LevelGeometry and an increased amount of MapObjects, you'll create more awsome visuals than ever.
But there's still the technical side which requires a lot of preplanning - where to put the lights, how to set up the visportals...

Share this post


Link to post
BNA! said:

But there's still the technical side which requires a lot of preplanning - where to put the lights, how to set up the visportals...

Yeah, these technical aspects are going to be much more important than they were in Quake3...

Share this post


Link to post

it will probobly be tedious enough that 'newbie' mappers arent going to be cropping up all the time to get their 15 minutes of fame, or 15 minutes of infamy (depending on just how awful the map is). i tried my hand at doom mapping about 2 years ago and it just went nowhere. same with half life. the half-life map editer made me want to shoot my computer (so did the walk throughs). doom3 maps (and maps for games to come) will require genuine pre-mapping work (and probobly quite a lot of it).

Share this post


Link to post
BNA! said:

You have to stray away from the idea of mapping everything out in a level editor. Especially Doom3 heavily relies on traditional 3D modelling skills, preferably in LightWave.
Once you get the hang of working with LevelGeometry and an increased amount of MapObjects, you'll create more awsome visuals than ever.
But there's still the technical side which requires a lot of preplanning - where to put the lights, how to set up the visportals...


Well, to be honest, in today's environment my interest is solely multiplayer. It's just too complex to make single player maps anymore, something I don't care to do or want to invest time into really perfecting. So I'd probably stick to mp IF I did it at all, just so I could get by on gameplay over graphics, and not worry about making something insanely articulate...

of course, here's hoping the splashdamage team (they were still on contract to do the mp maps, right?) did a good job so I wouldn't have to worry about creating over playing heh... but knowing that team's mappers (which I do) I'm sure the standard maps will be unplayable pieces of graphic-based crap.

But we'll see.

Share this post


Link to post
TwiNCannoN said:

Well, to be honest, in today's environment my interest is solely multiplayer. It's just too complex to make single player maps anymore, something I don't care to do or want to invest time into really perfecting. So I'd probably stick to mp IF I did it at all, just so I could get by on gameplay over graphics, and not worry about making something insanely articulate...

BNA was more talking about the strictly technical aspects, not the aesthetic ones. Placing lights is going to be important since they are a huge factor in how fast the game runs. Using visportals correctly (which aid the engine in determining what to draw) will also be very important in making a map which runs well.

Share this post


Link to post

Exactely.

Rendering very high poly environmets will work in Doom3, but you always have to take as many precautions about light count and placement as possible.

I expect the first flood of user maps to suffer greatly from bad light placement and overdone effects.

To say the standard maps will be unplayable pieces of graphic-based crap is just silly. To design mp maps for Doom3 you'll have to take care of entities which are dynamically updated for each client, such as moving things, physics objects and switcheable / damageable lights.

While in Quake3 all and everything was about r_speeds in Doom3 you have more headwork to do.

To simply redesign a good Q3 map in Doom3 doesn't cut it.

The unified lighting model and nice physics objects allow you to introduce new gameplay elements which first have to get adapted by mappers.
Then we'll see some amazing and fun to play mp maps.

There is so much you can achieve with this engine...

Share this post


Link to post

Ahh.

I read it as placement of lights regarding a geometric light looking well-placed with an entity light. Well, again, for all the technical sides of things I'm not too knowledged so I can't really follow :\

But yes, I also agree that if lights will take a roll in multiplayer (still to be seen, personally I still can't see it being possible with some kind of model deformation inside a shadow or something... there's just too many ways to get around darkness), it could make things very interesting on the mapping side. And you say there's damageable lights eh?

God, I can't wait for this game heh :p

Share this post


Link to post
TwiNCannoN said:

I read it as placement of lights regarding a geometric light looking well-placed with an entity light. Well, again, for all the technical sides of things I'm not too knowledged so I can't really follow :\


Honestly, I don't think I understand you...

In Doom3 there are just lights, no geometric lights, no entity lights - just lights. If a mapper wishes so, they could be shootable, swing around, cast a shadow or not, move around, letting them switch on and off via a lightswitch on the wall, letting them project a movie on a theater screen...

But after all they're all just dynamic lights (with the expection of an ambient light type which is a totally different story left to discuss after the release)

TwiNCannoN said:

But yes, I also agree that if lights will take a roll in multiplayer (still to be seen, personally I still can't see it being possible with some kind of model deformation inside a shadow or something... there's just too many ways to get around darkness), it could make things very interesting on the mapping side.


What have model deformations to do with being inside a shadow volume or not?

You may want to look at this diagram I've made to illustrate how the rendering of the lights basically works based on a Carmack interview which is also linked there:
http://www.doom3world.org/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=25354#25354

Share this post


Link to post

Well, at first I thought you meant mapping lights as in making the geometry "fit" with the entity.

Like, in all games we've played thus far, we can make it so lighting makes no sense. A red lightbulb that casts blue light, no lightbulb whatsoever but a huge bright light, etc... I thought you meant making lights look how they should be. Which I could understand being harder in the newer games when lights don't stay still and basically become annoying little bastages :) As for how doom3 specific lighting works, I've no clue.

And model deformation has nothing to do with lighting, I'm just saying - I'm not sure if I buy the whole "hiding in shadows". Of course, if they pull it off, it'd be awesome - an innovation in gameplay for sure. But in all current games I've played (again, this could be different) there's always, ALWAYS been ways to get around shadows. Up the gamma and you'll see the model's skin, change lightmodes (of course, this won't be in doom3), monitor brightness, 3rd party program, etc... so I was just suggesting deformation - maybe transparency even - as a possibility to "enhance" the way shadows work. Of course, if doom3 gets it right, then great :)

Btw, that link isn't working :(

Share this post


Link to post

vertexlight actually :D I'm pretty sure Id confirmed there would be no way to disable shadows in doom3 though, or even tone them down...

thus the interest...

Share this post


Link to post
TwiNCannoN said:

Well, at first I thought you meant mapping lights as in making the geometry "fit" with the entity.

Like, in all games we've played thus far, we can make it so lighting makes no sense. A red lightbulb that casts blue light, no lightbulb whatsoever but a huge bright light, etc... I thought you meant making lights look how they should be. Which I could understand being harder in the newer games when lights don't stay still and basically become annoying little bastages :) As for how doom3 specific lighting works, I've no clue.


I see.
Well, artistically speaking it's harder to light a level with static lghts / lightmaps. But in Doom3 you have to keep your eye on the lightcount in view.

To match them up with the geometry shouldn't be hard. Basically you first have to think about lights, then about geometry.

TwiNCannoN said:

And model deformation has nothing to do with lighting, I'm just saying - I'm not sure if I buy the whole "hiding in shadows". Of course, if they pull it off, it'd be awesome - an innovation in gameplay for sure. But in all current games I've played (again, this could be different) there's always, ALWAYS been ways to get around shadows. Up the gamma and you'll see the model's skin, change lightmodes (of course, this won't be in doom3), monitor brightness, 3rd party program, etc... so I was just suggesting deformation - maybe transparency even - as a possibility to "enhance" the way shadows work. Of course, if doom3 gets it right, then great :)


Cheating you mean.
The idea is take advantage of the lighting and shadowing of a level. I can guarantee you, that they did pull it off perfectly.
But cheaters will do what they want to - I don't think they belong into this discussion.

TwiNCannoN said:

Btw, that link isn't working :(


Server got hammered yesterday, works fine now.

Share this post


Link to post
TwiNCannoN said:

vertexlight actually :D I'm pretty sure Id confirmed there would be no way to disable shadows in doom3 though, or even tone them down...

thus the interest...


You can't tone them down since they're just black.

Id software wanted to introduce some hard coded console variables for multiplayer.
One of them surely is a locked shadows cvar.

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×