If the game is so Linear

The grand theft auto series is a perfectly fine example of reduced linearity in games. The point is that you have more options available to you. Doom3, being as story-based as it is, suffers from an inability to allow you to make a wide variety of choices. This is something which most (all?) heavily story-centered games suffer from. Not that there's anything wrong with that. It's simply a drawback.

Amaster said:

The grand theft auto series is a perfectly fine example of reduced linearity in games. The point is that you have more options available to you. Doom3, being as story-based as it is, suffers from an inability to allow you to make a wide variety of choices. This is something which most (all?) heavily story-centered games suffer from. Not that there's anything wrong with that. It's simply a drawback.

Point is GTA is not a FPS type game it's an action adventure game almost like an rpg. SO it's completely different than Doom 3 which is a FPS. Nuff said.

ZiGZaG said:

Point is GTA is not a FPS type game it's an action adventure game almost like an rpg. SO it's completely different than Doom 3 which is a FPS. Nuff said.

So what you're saying is that doom3 is linear.

Amaster said:

So what you're saying is that doom3 is linear.

Basically that's what the whole thread has been about, but I don't really care because that's what I expected from a FPS but most people want to throw off on it *shrug*

ZiGZaG said:

Compare'n grand theft auto to Doom 3 is like compare'n some who can make a sentece without the word fucking in it, to someone who can compose an intellegent sentence without any profanity "dawg" yo yo.

yes I was saying that a non-linear type game is sort of like GTA. Doom 3 is linear. Im trying to make a point

ZiGZaG said:

Basically that's what the whole thread has been about, but I don't really care because that's what I expected from a FPS but most people want to throw off on it *shrug*

I dont care either. Id had a specific way they wanted the game to unfold. I think it worked out rather well. I dont think there's anything wrong with linearity as long as it's purposeful.

Well, we are mainly talking about the progress inside the levels, which can be more or less linear (and less linear is always better). And who says it can not be done when you have a strong storyline, just take a look at Deus Ex: strong story plus non-linear level design (and it doesn´t have anything to do with the RPG aspects of Deus Ex btw). It can easily be made that you get into the story relevant scenes but still have multiple options in the progressing between those scenes (a mixture of linear and non-linear if you like).

Also id Software´s older SP titles always had a certain degree of non-linearity in the leveldesign of the old Dooms, Quake1 and Quake2, so I hoped they are aware of that quality and expand it in Doom3.

Tetzlaff said:

Shit.

But besides the extremely linear level design in Unreal2 my other complaints were the almost non-existing multi-level combat (almost everything is on the same height level), the incoherent settings, the stupid monster placement (only one species per setting) and the overall shortness of the game. I think those other points don´t apply to Doom3.

oh no, then i retract my statement, none of Those things above (well there really isnt that much multi height level usage in doom 3, but certainly more than i rememeber seeing in Unreal II)

System shock (1&2), Deus Ex, and Thief (1&2) are two examples of FPSes that arent linear

actually, Even the original Dooms and (to a lesser extent) Quakes were less linear than doom3. Remember in all these examples im talking about *level design* not the RPG elements.

The only true non leniar games are Deus games, Even GTA is leniar, you dont have 5 different endings, the game ends 1 way, DooM³ IS A LENIAR GAME, get over it. Its not an opinion, its a true fact. You cant beat the game unless you kill the 1 main boss, unless im missing something, you cant like join him and take over the world for an ending, Thus its Leniarness.

Mortictian said:

The only true non leniar games are Deus games, Even GTA is leniar, you dont have 5 different endings, the game ends 1 way, DooM³ IS A LENIAR GAME, get over it. Its not an opinion, its a true fact. You cant beat the game unless you kill the 1 main boss, unless im missing something, you cant like join him and take over the world for an ending, Thus its Leniarness.

You dont think System Shock was non-linear?

No, i think when people say a game is linear or non-linear, at least in FPSes - they are talking about level design as in "you can get to point x by travelling from point A to C, or C to D, or A to D or B to C."

I dont think people mean that the overall structure of the game itself should be open-ended for the game to be non-linear (although that would be kinda cool, it soudns like the type of thing that *actually would* add more time to development) .

*Wishes his avatar was unique again*

I guess almost every FPS game in the market is linear.
For example,

Half-life = Halo = Doom3 = Linear

And they are still fun to play.

So, what so crappy, just enjoy the game.:)

Any decent amount of non-linearity WILL add to the RPGness, but that isn't a bad thing. Say between levels you can buy/sell/barter ammos and weapons for other ammos and weapons. Is it now an RPG? What if you can hold your items instead of using them right away and use them later. Is it now an RPG? Say you have scripted conversations.. now an RPG? Unscriptected conversations.. now an RPG?

To me RPG isn't really a genre in itself, but a rating. How RPG-like is a given game. Technically I'd say every genre is a fraud. http://www.the-underdogs.org/ refuse to use genres because they just don't make sense. Instead they apply any number of "Themes" to a game.

Epistax said:

Any decent amount of non-linearity WILL add to the RPGness, but that isn't a bad thing. Say between levels you can buy/sell/barter ammos and weapons for other ammos and weapons. Is it now an RPG? What if you can hold your items instead of using them right away and use them later. Is it now an RPG? Say you have scripted conversations.. now an RPG? Unscriptected conversations.. now an RPG?

To me RPG isn't really a genre in itself, but a rating. How RPG-like is a given game. Technically I'd say every genre is a fraud. http://www.the-underdogs.org/ refuse to use genres because they just don't make sense. Instead they apply any number of "Themes" to a game.

An RPG is an combonation of the stuff you mentioned, not just 1 certain element, look at Counter Strike you buy weapons for missions etc on it before you play or do a mission and it's not an RPG it's a FPS / RTS in my opinion. An RPG would be a game with quests, stores, scripted conversasions, even player characters, With a long term goal in mind, not a short term goal. FPS has no real long term goal other than getting to the boss at the end. An RPG has multiple goals or things to do, not just go get a key, but you can go get a key, go do something completely different come back to drop said key off even days later, multiple paths to the same long term goal and multiple paths to a short term goal. Not classing a game because of someones way of thinking is *shrug* you can have "generes" but isn't that still the same as classing it under an "rpg-ish" or "fps-ish" class without coming right out and saying it?

Ugh, arguing over nothing!!!!!

Want Doom 3 to become non-linear?
make---map---mod!

Dont want it to be linear?
dont download non-linear maps

Want a pretty little pikachu Doom 3 RPG? (Shudders)
make--map--mod!

Sure its alot of work, time, effort, & programming courses...

With a program that currently has no attached icon of its own, and no official manual or troubleshoot (already bugged out on my pc).

But heres the hope...If fans made doom 1 and doom 2 with
different guns,
ability to fly,
gravity,
effects,
3-d
2 or more floors,
and enough modding and programming that even Carmack would s*** his pants, than Doom 3 has ALOT of unforseen potential

Nuff said...

The problem with genres is you can only have one. For genres that are commonly bridged, a new genre is formed (a la Action-Adventure). On Underdogs, Doom3 would probably be classified as "Horror, Science Fiction" with a genre of FPS.

What I was trying to say was to refute what I perceived as claims that the addition of any RPG element to the game would turn it into an RPG. I fully appreciate having choices to make and I don't believe it affects the genre at all.

I just suck at talking, that's all.

Don´t forget we are talking about non-linear level design, not non-linear game design per se or non-linear story with open character development etc.

Also there are different degrees of linearity in level design. The worst case of linearity is the strict on-a-rail linearity of Unreal2, where you never have a choice of path and travel on a straight, predefined way through the level.

Then there is the light non-linearity the classic games had, where you have multiple route choices *inside* a level. Example: Command Control (e1m4) in Ultimate Doom, you have three possible directions right from the start of the level. Hub level designs and use of backtracking also fits into this cathergory.

To take the non-linear level design one step further, you can include different objectives that can be accomplished in any order, giving the player some more freedom of choice.
Another way of advanced non-linear leveldesign is creating alternative paths to the next crucial area, like it has been done in an exemplary way in Deus Ex: you can chose the enemy infested passage and fight, or find a more hidden passage to circumvent those enemies (just an example).

SupremeGeneral said:

Ugh, arguing over nothing!!!!!

Want Doom 3 to become non-linear?
make---map---mod!

Dont want it to be linear?
dont download non-linear maps

Want a pretty little pikachu Doom 3 RPG? (Shudders)
make--map--mod!

Sure its alot of work, time, effort, & programming courses...

With a program that currently has no attached icon of its own, and no official manual or troubleshoot (already bugged out on my pc).

But heres the hope...If fans made doom 1 and doom 2 with
different guns,
ability to fly,
gravity,
effects,
3-d
2 or more floors,
and enough modding and programming that even Carmack would s*** his pants, than Doom 3 has ALOT of unforseen potential

Nuff said...

No one is argue'n about anything, so take some prozac and go build a mod yourself heh. You're the one that's gotten all worked up, if you don't like the conversasion here go to the next thread. Or better yet go talk about moding in the Mod forum, thanks.