Cacodemon

Maybe?

Sorry, only front view done.

Yum, cacospinach!

Yeah, something like that. Doubly disgusting.

Looks nice... hey, haven't we already got a caco? :P

Yeah, but people have complained about it. Frankly, if we replace anything that's already preexisting, I'd like to see it be the imp. I kinda like the caco as it is, but the imp bugs the heck out of me. And by the way, wow, that thing rocks. Never mind, I'd love to see this replacement caco.

Looks like something that Poison Ivy from Batman would create.

Geekmarine - i'm working on the new imp, it'll be a little hellish and gargoyle like :P

Have anything to show?

You know at this point I'd re-iterate look don't you read the rules it says you cannot submit stuff that has already been submitted - we aren't employing any kind of quality control and we don't have time to argue over alternatives, so you can't until we reach 100%.. however I've noticed that this isn't in the rules as written, it seems.

However, there you go :P

Fine, I'll make it the Cyberdemon then.

I think it'd make a pretty cool cyberdemon.

Hmm I have to say, where as your effort here is a lot more detailed and crisper than the current cacodemon, I really do like the existing one (it was my favourite replacement monster sprite, perhaps joint first with the shotgun guy).

Can you see why we have the rule - what do you think about it? Should we enforce it or drop it?

Drop it. What's the point of only accepting the first entry someone provides. Having the policy means Freedoom has Zero Quality control, and that this thing is just being made for the sake of having all the entries replaced to make it free. If that's so, let's just replace all monsters with the same sprites.

Fredrik said:

Have anything to show?

Yeah, but he's nude.

Hopefully the small ideal resolution of the imp will automatically fix that problem

I say Drop The Rule, because a lot of the resources in Freedoom suck (and I admit to having rushed a few out the door, like my sounds which are incredibly low quality). if we intend to make Freedoom a viable replacement for the Doom IWAD, it needs to be more appealing to the end user, and if we want that, then the existing resources desperately need replacing.

Anything that's clearly better should be allowed in imho. Many of the weapons have already been updated (lately the chaingun), so there's a precendent for it.

Fredrik's sprite looks great, though it doesn't have the "cuteness" that the original cacodemon had and hence isn't a compelling replacement for the current cacodemon. It could become the Pain Elemental though. I once had a go at making a P/E replacement:

http://glbsp.sourceforge.net/pain_mockup.png

with a similar theme (green tentacled alien), but it didn't turn out very well so I didn't bother continuing with it.

I like Fredrik's sprite, but I too reckon it should be used as the pain elemental. I don't think anything has been done for that, so it is needed and (as people have said) there already is a caco. A pain elemental requires a similar number of graphics to the Caco as well, so a similar amount of work for Fredrik.

Drop it. What's the point of only accepting the first entry someone provides. Having the policy means Freedoom has Zero Quality control, and that this thing is just being made for the sake of having all the entries replaced to make it free.

Got it in one. The idea is to stop a small group of people spending all their time and talents trying to get the perfect cyberdemon (for example) whilst the rest of the sprites go to rot. It's so that we can get something finished and vaguely playable ASAP, which would increase our userbase a great deal and provide MORE talented people who could provide quality replacements.

If that's so, let's just replace all monsters with the same sprites.

To be quite honest I'd go for that, but you'd have to adjust for size, animations, etc. The reason we didn't in the first place was there was a fairly high chance we'd get enough people providing a spread of stuff.

if we intend to make Freedoom a viable replacement for the Doom IWAD, it needs to be more appealing to the end user, and if we want that, then the existing resources desperately need replacing.

A viable as in good replacement, yes. A viable as in usable replacement, no. Have you seen how long it's taken to get where we are now? Imagine if we had to argue about quality control the whole way through as well?

Anything that's clearly better should be allowed in imho. Many of the weapons have already been updated (lately the chaingun), so there's a precendent for it.

Well I'd say fredrik's replacement is clearly better, but I still don't think it should replace the existing caco, which is more than adequate.

It could become the Pain Elemental though.

I assumed the PE was taken since fredrik suggested the cyber. Should have checked first. Fred, this would make a *great* PE. What do you think?

Well... then the lost souls would have to be modified to fit this one's fire color :P

Jon said:

Got it in one. The idea is to stop a small group of people spending all their time and talents trying to get the perfect cyberdemon (for example) whilst the rest of the sprites go to rot. It's so that we can get something finished and vaguely playable ASAP, which would increase our userbase a great deal and provide MORE talented people who could provide quality replacements.

I have to disagree with this mentality. Just because it's free doesn't mean it can't be of high quality. Just trying to get this out the door so anyone can play it sends the message that people don't care about this project enough to take their time and not rush it. It might boost the fanbase, but if it's ugly, I doubt anyone will stick around for very long, free or not. There's no guarantee that a completely free game would create a larger fanbase, anyway.

Besides, if you're just waiting for "better" talent, you sure don't act like it with this mentality. Why would anyone want to replace anything in this project with something better when the idea of "get it in one" goes against that? Some of the most talented people in the community are right here, but their hands are tied behind their back because it's too late for them to submit something of better quality.

If you're afraid this will become another RTC-3057 or Hellcore or whatever, so what? Many projects in the community take years to complete, so I don't see why this project would have to be any different. It shows that we are dedicated enough to get this done, no matter how long. No one is being paid for this and they don't have to work within a limited schedule like a big company would. This is all a labor of love, so it makes sense that it might not be done right away.

This is supposed to be a free replacement of DOOM, a game that many cherish, and I think the quality of this project should reflect that. Why would you want to download an arguably free, but rushed, subpar game when the actual game it's trying to replace looks so much better and plays better for it? I'm sorry if this isn't warranted, but it just bugs me sometimes seeing all this potential for an awesome free Doom-clone go to waste. I really think some of the graphics could be better, some of the sprites especially. Most of the textures are fine.

Fredrik said:

Well... then the lost souls would have to be modified to fit this one's fire color :P

Um could you not modify this one's fire colour to tie in with the lost souls? Would that not be easier?

Frankly, at this point, I think ANY work on the project would be appreciated. Sure, it's a bit pointless to replace current resources, but on the other hand, if the replacements are truly better, it's better than the current situation of very little progress at all. Of course, then again, I suppose that effort could be devoted to making new resources... Whatever. Besides, I think that would make a great Pain Elemental, if it can't replace the caco. Don't know why I didn't think of it. Ooo, and as luck would have it, we don't even have anyone assigned to the Pain Elemental.

Snarboo said:

Some of the most talented people in the community are right here, but their hands are tied behind their back because it's too late for them to submit something of better quality.

It's not too late to submit something of better quality: They could work on something that hasn't been done already, or wait until we reach 100% and implement a quality control system.

There's no guarantee that a completely free game would create a larger fanbase, anyway.

Besides, if you're just waiting for "better" talent, you sure don't act like it with this mentality. Why would anyone want to replace anything in this project with something better when the idea of "get it in one" goes against that?

Regarding wider audiences, let me try to explain. I wasn't suggesting that the people currently dedicating their time to freedoom aren't good enough and that we want to attract better people. I'm sorry if that's the impression I gave- it is absolutely not the case.

No what I mean is, at the moment we have one community working on us and that's the doom community. What's the project about? It's about making the doom source ports accessible to people outside the doom community by removing the need to have doom!

For example, the debian project has a freedoom package. Once freedoom is complete (or complete enough) for it to be seriously useable, then we've opened up potential contributors to the debian user base of thousands.

geekmarine said:

Frankly, at this point, I think ANY work on the project would be appreciated.

I have to say that the situation isn't as much of a problem as it used to be. In the early days, people trounced over other people's resources whenever they felt like it, the net result being the other person stopped contributing. A short-term gain of some better resources in some people's eyes, a long-term loss of a contributor.

if the replacements are truly better, it's better than the current situation of very little progress at all.

But here's the big stumbling block which nobody has been willing to work on: If we are going to let resources be replaced, how do we determine which is better? Who gets a say?

Jon said:

But here's the big stumbling block which nobody has been willing to work on: If we are going to let resources be replaced, how do we determine which is better? Who gets a say?

vB powered poll topics

use them!

Jon said:

If we are going to let resources be replaced, how do we determine which is better? Who gets a say?

This question was going to come up sooner or later. I'd say the project admins should gauge the general consensus on these forums, take a good look at the current resource and its proposed replacement, and make a decision. They are ultimately responsible for what goes in and what is left out.

Ajapted said:

This question was going to come up sooner or later.

The question has come up loads of times before :(

Ajapted said:

I'd say the project admins should gauge the general consensus on these forums, take a good look at the current resource and its proposed replacement, and make a decision. They are ultimately responsible for what goes in and what is left out.

I don't think we (admins) should really have any more say as to what happens than anyone else. I like the idea below...

vB powered poll topics

use them!

The vb poll topic is a good technical tool but the population of the forum has little relation to freedoom contributors. Most of the people posting have not submitted a thing.

Jon said:

The question has come up loads of times before :(

What I meant was: eventually there was going to become a point when replacements were allowed (e.g. V1.0), and at that time the same question arises: how to decide what is better. I doubt that a formal process (e.g. a selection committee) is viable here with so few people, so that only leaves an informal process like discussions on this forum.

Ajapted said:

What I meant was: eventually there was going to become a point when replacements were allowed (e.g. V1.0), and at that time the same question arises: how to decide what is better. I doubt that a formal process (e.g. a selection committee) is viable here with so few people, so that only leaves an informal process like discussions on this forum.

Yup, I agree with everything you say. I think we need to think more about how we'd organise it. What I'm thinking is, those who want to have a say subscribe to a mailing list. Then we can make sure that people are aware of polls when they come up. Give them a fairly long running time before they're closed, but make sure the opening and closing times are decided in advance and stuck to. Disregard votes from people not on the list.

Processes like that are pretty much guaranteed to keep people from contributing (I know I wouldn't).

Fredrik said:

Processes like that are pretty much guaranteed to keep people from contributing (I know I wouldn't).

So what exactly do you disagree with? Being notified via email if your resource is about to be dropped, so you have a chance to vote against that if you don't read the forum; or giving the interested people enough of a chance to vote that its fair; or weening out potential cloned forum accounts to sway the vote?