KDIZD cancelled because of copyright issues?

kristus said:

This doesn't mean that it's not illegal, which it is, it's very illegal to use Heretic sprites in Doom, but is id and raven gonna waste time enforcing all these transgressions or are they gonna live with it and let people do that(...)

Illegal or not, the point is not to have any trouble from anyone when it comes to copyright issues once we release KDiZD.

Teams are for losers.

Grazza said:

That's hardly the best way to put it. It's not like he actively prevents people from making or distributing wads. Ty is the principal reason why there is still a coherent and up-to-date Doom archive. Like any archive maintainer (or webmaster, etc.) he has rules on what is and what isn't allowed, and uses his judgement on how best to apply those rules.

heh, I didn't mean it like that, I think he actually does a very good job. I just mean his rules are the ones that are actually going to prevent a publishing, and his interpretations of what can be published are the only ones that have any real power. Although you can reason with him if he initially disagrees, and he's fairly openminded to debating the point. But if EULA is the law, Ty is the supreme court :P

Nmn said:

Illegal or not, the point is not to have any trouble from anyone when it comes to copyright issues once we release KDiZD.

That's the whole point, why would they give a shit about your project when they haven't given a shit about the gazillion other projects that use id property sprites textures and whatever else.

I cant talk much when it comes to copyright infringment or whatever.

But the bottom line is you should not of drawn attention to your selfs. Myself, I would'nt give a shit and just carry on, no disrespect to ID but it is an 11 year old engine after all.

Yes, we'd like to do that, but once we release our production it will gather attention for sure.

The point with this legal stuff is to avoid the fate of Generations and Reborn mods for the Quakes series. Refresh my memory-why were they cancelled?

Nmn said:

Yes, we'd like to do that, but once we release our production it will gather attention for sure.

The point with this legal stuff is to avoid the fate of Generations and Reborn mods for the Quakes series. Refresh my memory-why were they cancelled?

Generations was cancelled because they used original resources from one id engine in another, which the EULA specifically goes against. This is not really what you're doing here, so don't compare yourself to that. I also do not doubt that had you not pretended like this was the next best thing to sliced bread and thought you MUST contact id because it's so great, you could have released it with fanfare from the community but not much further from that. You're not revolutionizing anything, you're not going into bold new territory, you just took the original maps, added some slopes, modified some resources (like so so many before you) and put it all together.

Nmn said:

Yes, we'd like to do that, but once we release our production it will gather attention for sure.

The point with this legal stuff is to avoid the fate of Generations and Reborn mods for the Quakes series. Refresh my memory-why were they cancelled?

It'll gather attention from the same people that the rest of the wads released gathered attention from. I highly doubt anyone else would care.

Don't go comparing your project to Reborn or Generations, Manc already explained the story of Generations, and Reborn was a case of creating id's world of Doom in another game when at the same time id was working on the next incarnation of that very universe.

You can't seriously think that KDIZD will have any kind of impact outside of the Doom community. Can you?

Mancubus II said:

I also do not doubt that had you not pretended like this was the next best thing to sliced bread and thought you MUST contact id because it's so great(bla bla bla)

I cannot answer this question because
1.I was not the one to contact ID for legality (or whatever reason You can imagine)
2.It was not my idea in the first place.
3.I must admit I WAS against this idea for some reason (possibly because of some sort of anticapation of a similair mess that is going on now). Pure hunch.

Kristus said:

You can't seriously think that KDIZD will have any kind of impact outside of the Doom community. Can you?

I must admit I did have toughts about it getting attention to people outside the community, but to face reality, I do agree with You. The engine is too outdated.

Refresh my memory again-Operation Na Pali. That was mentioned in some PC mag if I remember correctly (Computer Gaming World?). Was it because, by the time it was done, Unreal Tournament still not-so outdated?

Nmn said:

Refresh my memory again-Operation Na Pali. That was mentioned in some PC mag if I remember correctly (Computer Gaming World?). Was it because, by the time it was done, Unreal Tournament still not-so outdated?

Huh? I have no idea what you're talking about, but the thing I know about unreal is that I think there was a people or something called Nali or something in it. But what that fit into all of this is beyond me.

I'm certain Operation: Na Pali for Unreal Tournament, by Team Vortex WAS mentioned in a PC mag. My memory fails me beyond this point tough. Anyone who clarifies this-I'll be thankful.

Kristus-the Nalis were the natural inhabitants of the planet "Na Pali" where the first part of Unreal takes place (and a lot of addons as well, including Deja Vu and Operation Na Pali, the most famous SP Mod for Unreal Tournament).

And?

and this:

Nmn said:

I'm certain Operation: Na Pali for Unreal Tournament, by Team Vortex WAS mentioned in a PC mag. My memory fails me beyond this point tough. Anyone who clarifies this-I'll be thankful.

Ofcourse this is beyond You so I'll wait until someone else clarifies this. Plus, if this is clarified, Your theory of mods never making out of the communities of games their meant for will be bent.

So some Unreal mod was in a game mag once, who cares and what does that have to do with KDiZD? And don't tell me that you think this mod might be featured in a gaming mag, cause then I think I'll have to hurt you for your own good.

No one knows. I don't imply it will be and I don't imply otherwise. We'll see but You can't exclude that possibility.

The last time I heard of a gaming mag showing a Doom mod was Aliens TC, but now they suddenly decide to go retro and write about your mod?

PC Zone and PC Gamer UK both dedicate a couple of pages per issue to mods. And if you think they restrict themselves to new gamers, you're wrong - JDoom and ZDoom have both been mentioned, and a recent issue of PC Gamer had a blurb about a mod for Baldur's Gate 2 (a five year old game).

Jdoom was featured in NOV 2004's PCZone, but I haven't seen a doom mod or map on a coverdisc for years.

Szymanski said:

Jdoom was featured in NOV 2004's PCZone

I guess that had more to do with it being close to the 10 Year Doom anniversary, rather than anything to do really with the ports themselves.

Really, you KDiZD guys have a higher opinion of yourselves than I thought if you even have an inkling of a tought that somebody outside of the Doom community is gonna care about this.

The Flange Peddler said:

Really, you KDiZD guys have a higher opinion of yourselves than I thought if you even have an inkling of a tought that somebody outside of the Doom community is gonna care about this.

I must agree about our high opinion.
Is that bad? If we tought of ourselves as average mappers who never make something better but generic techbases that fill the archives or some ripped weapons mods there would be no KDiZD. Reaching for tops makes us raise our abilities to produce better quality. Something similair happened in the industry in the 19th century-the quality and speed of industry was raising so quickly people could not believe the achievements.
This my friend, is called Evolution. If people start reaching for higher quality in modding once KDiZD will be released, not just generic techbases than we consider our success as a double one ;)

kristus said:

The last time I heard of a gaming mag showing a Doom mod was Aliens TC, but now they suddenly decide to go retro and write about your mod?

I believe You know about the "retro" gaming zone in several PC mags out there. What if someone made a mod and emailed a specific mag to reveal little information about our mod? Crazy newletters get published, why not our mod?

Did you just compare your apparent abilities at Doom modding to the industrial revolution?

The Flange Peddler said:

Did you just compare your apparent abilities at Doom modding to the industrial revolution?

Yes.
and naturally I am aware of Your disagreement. This is not because of me being "posh" or filled with myself, but the comparsion meant to imply the sudden raise in quality in modding for Doom as it happened in the industrial revolution, and any other revolution out there. A raise of the standards.
Wads such as Gothic 2 or Darkening 2 revolutionised Doom modding by creating a new standard-natural aesthetics. Today, if a map looks bad (like those from 94) it ir presumed as bad, because new heights were created that, if not followed by others, will not have the same quality. Very philosophical, but interesting in the least.

Nmn said:

If we tought of ourselves as average mappers who never make something better but generic techbases that fill the archives or some ripped weapons mods there would be no KDiZD.

KDiZD: Ripped weapons from Doom Alphas - CHECK
KDiZD: Textures modifed from existing - CHECK
KDiZD: Monsters ripped from other games - CHECK
KDiZD: Levels ripped from E1 - CHECK

By your own definition you seem to be a very average group of mappers.

The Flange Peddler said:

KDiZD: Ripped weapons from Doom Alphas -

Wrong. The graphics will have a serious makeover. Those were just place holders. We've waited long time now to start making new stuff.

The Flange Peddler said:

KDiZD: Textures modifed from existing - CHECK

Yes, but new textures nonetheless. However, if the graphic copyrights is settled in a matter of us creating totally new textures-be sure, we can do this.

The Flange Peddler said:

KDiZD: Monsters ripped from other games - CHECK

Wrong again. See point 1 and 2.

The Flange Peddler said:

KDiZD: Levels ripped from E1 - CHECK

Indeed, but they were used as a base, while the modifications put into the levels, both in terms of gameplay and architecture, in our eyes, are quite a stand out from other wads.

Please do not rely on Your knowledge of KDiZD, because things are developing, tough in secrecy ;) We're planning a whole bucket of new surprises for You. Trust me, if this was just a good wad, I'd say so. One thing for sure-it makes me proud of being a part of this team.

Everyone (well, almost everyone) absolutely loved RTC-3057 hub 1, and I can assure you KDIZD is at least as good as that project.

And to pre-empt the "OMG YUO AROGUNT SOB!!!1111" flames, remember that I was (and still am) an RTC-3057 team member.

I've read enuf of your posts over the years to know you don't give a fuck Nightmare, but i don't see how a project based on the same maps i played as kid is going to be as good as RTC with its storyline, music and its great levels i could be wrong.. KDIZD might be the next best thing, but you all have hyped it to much, its the reason for half your aggro'.

Im not trying to be an asshole but, the haters and the copyright shit is your own doing, So Nmn, Nightmare and the rest of the team just carry on and get it done!

NiGHTMARE said:

One of our team members, namely Risen, has believed that using modified textures & sprites is illegal for several years now. This is why, towards the end of Twice Risen's life, he ended up dumping the entire TR texture wad and using a load of textures from various fan-made Quake texture packs instead.

Wait... that's the same Risen?

Yep, aka Michael Niggel :).

Since I am not so good at interpreting and understanding laws, I just hope that the "KDiZD" project can be completed and published... with observance of the law, if possible! :P

Haha, they actually thought iD would give them permission? rofl.