how long does a doom level need to be?

If you read the subject you know my question. I am afraid that many of my finished pwads are too short.

This does not matter. You decide and if someone says "The level is too short", another person might as well say "the level is too long" ;) I always tought that Exhumed levels were too short, but people complain on them being quite large. Heh.
Anyway, it does not matter. You decide as a map author. Some like long, some like short maps, what kind of do You like?

Well, A level's length is really insignificant. I mean, Look at MAP20 of Alien Vendetta. That was a long-ass map that took me 2 hours to finish. But that's not what made it good. the challenge of the map itself made it good.

Scythe, is full of REALLY short maps. But those are great because of the intense battles within a short amount of time, and the flow of the maps is perfect, too.

Maps are like penises. Size doesn't matter.

But try to make your non DM map more than just a single room, unless it's a super huge complicated uber-room. (Deus Vult MAP02)

To me the length of a wad isnt that important,its gameplay that is by far more important to me.
And of course the looks of an wad is very important for me also.
I can have just as much fun with an small wad as with an bigg ass wad.

IMO, any level which takes on average around 25 minutes to complete is a good level.

doom2day said:

If you read the subject you know my question. I am afraid that many of my finished pwads are too short.

Quality over quantity my friend. What does it matter if a map takes just a couple minutes to beat if it's really good?

If it's fun... who cares how long it is

Yes, the lenght of the pwad is not important.
Also, if the pwad's meant to be played coorperative, don't use complicated puzzles or key mazes.
Use surprises instead.

DooMBoy said:

Quality over quantity my friend. What does it matter if a map takes just a couple minutes to beat if it's really good?

Heh... Some thing that takes a "couple of minutes to beat" is not good in my book...

It all depends on how well you level keeps the player challenged, plus a constant new change in scenery, thus a small level could take hours to beat if there was lots of traps and challenges, just as a huge map could only take seconds if it sucked (example giant rooms fulla bfg's,godmode sphere's and imps ect,ect...)

Whether length is the time it takes to finish a wad or the size of the map: it won't really matter if the map is fun to play. A quality wad is a fun wad (and for me eye-candy is part of what makes a wad fun to play)

I personally prefer large maps, i hate wasting time downloading a 1 level WAD and find out the level takes like 5 minutes to complete because it like two rooms, it's a waste of time.

But that's just me, also depends on the level too i suppose. It's like Nmn said, everyone's gonna say different things.

Small maps are fun and can take much skill to do well, just take a gander at scythe. The first 10 or so maps fly by but are very memorable.

its not the meat, its the motion.

Submerge said:

Maps are like penises. Size doesn't matter.

hahaha, yeah that's what I've heard too </sarcasm>

Size doesnt matter. Some of my maps may only take two minutes to complete, others a half hour.

I like good, large maps.

(im not gay.)

Nmn said:

I always tought that Exhumed levels were too short, but people complain on them being quite large.

Which version, console (Both are different though) or PC? The two finished Exhumed TC levels of mine were very short indeed, but were designed to be played slowly (Little ammo, thus combat was mostly melee and ammo conservation), but had these incredibly STUPID par times (Whereby I played the level in the fastest time I could, using all the shortcuts, and made THAT time the par, so people would try to beat it).

As a guide to level length, I'm of the opinion nowadays that first levels should NEVER be longer than a minute of playtime when played in a Time Attack manner, but this maybe a lot of my oldschool rhetoric coming through.

I think any Doom level that exceeds ten minutes of TT play is too much, which is why I always do a run with -nomonsters to check length on my maps; I've even been known to cut entire sections (And reuse them for later maps where the theme permits), or move items around to give levels a better "flow".

[edit]Considering 1-level maps, I guess they have to feel like a self-contained experience rather than a part of something larger, so size matters. One of my favourite maps EVER, Vrack2 is an excellent size for a single level PWAD, and the amount of nonlinearity present makes it replayable, certainly.[/edit]

Jay: finish MI2. :p

Jayextee said:

Which version, console (Both are different though) or PC?

Unfortunately, I played only the PSX version (I heard Saturn has same levels with some minor changes due to the consoles handling of more complexed architecture or something like that..) I don't know about the PC levels, but the PSX levels were quite short, just some blasting (the longest levels are probably Nile Gorge and Heket Marsh) jumping and there's Your beloved camel.

Jayextee said:

The two finished Exhumed TC levels of mine were very short indeed

o_O
You're making an Exhumed TC? Whoa! One of my favorite console games. If it's not a secret please provide me with some info (source port, modding team, stuff)

He said they were finished so I doubt it's a secret.

Short maps are fine, but imo a singler-player level shouldn't be short if it's a single-map pwad. I think having a pwad with a single, tiny map is a bad idea, loading up a wad and being done with it after five minutes is no good. A wad with several small maps can be good. So if you've made a small map, make some more before releasing it.

shorter the better

Nmn said:

You're making an Exhumed TC? Whoa! One of my favorite console games. If it's not a secret please provide me with some info (source port, modding team, stuff)

:)

It's not a secret, but neither is it really being worked on at any rate (Especially since I have broken monitor syndrome again). Info? Okay, how about;

- Uses EDGE (This may change, maaaan I got to get some .exes that aren't dated about 2001...)
- Modding team is, ah... me. That's it as yet. I've been converting the GFX, making the maps, DDF coding, writing new midi music... everything.

The project is basically going to be an entirely new flavour to Exhumed, lifting heabily from the console versions (Which were my reference for monster behaviours and such) but playing rather differently to all three versions (To wit; all three versions are different, although the Saturn and PSX versions are more like "remixes" of each other... the original Saturn version having the better architecture and lighting (Yes, you read that right), but the PSX version having better structured gameplay overall, and many levels so far removed from the original Saturn incarnations they are essentially 100% different maps. Woah on the long bracketed comment).

That is, of course, when I can get round to it. Plan to when Monitor's fixed/I get a new monitor. This is mostly because I now have a computer that can run EDGE at a playable speed (Unlike when I started the thing, heh).

Labour of love really, IMO Exhumed was underrated.

kristus said:

Jay: finish MI2. :p

Maybe. I'm 50/50 between being disgusted with the whole thing (Scruffy textures, alignment) and proud of it (Gameplay, level layouts). I don't know how the project's going at this moment.

Well, they have caracter. :)