How do you view the Netherlands?

Only 5 years ago the Netherlands were known world wide for its tolerance and liberal minded people.

Our current government (the most right wing since WWII) has done everthing in its power to destroy this image, so I'd like to know how foreigners view my country.

If you told me 5 years ago that we would support a pre-emptive war, join an illegal occupation, re-introduce deportation, pre-emptive arrests and break down social security I would have said you were mad. Well... now it's reallity.

Frankly some of the things my government has done and is doing disgust me and make me ashamed to be Dutch...

How do you think foreigners see it? It is viewed as a haven for legal drugs and prostitution...little more. Though I heard one guy say there was probably "decent" weather there.

A geographical location on the map.

If I were to move anywhere, the only thing I would care about are the nearby neighbors and individuals in the general vacinity, a necessary amount of supply stores/public services and no ridiculous laws that would interfere with daily life.

I would like to move to norway some day... My cousins live in Olden, it looks really nice! (Better than Cleveland)

I've always thought it looked like a pretty cool place to live, being right there next to Sweden as prime examples of well-balnced society. I half-considered moving there on a couple occasions. But recently I have been hearing rumors of the government going scary and right-wing (along with most of the rest of Europe -- a rather frightening trend). I guess the rumors are true. :/

Danarchy said:

But recently I have been hearing rumors of the government going scary and right-wing (along with most of the rest of Europe -- a rather frightening trend). I guess the rumors are true. :/

I live in Belgium, a neighbouring country of the Netherlands. We're pretty much the same, except maybe a li'l less liberal and progressive overall. Still, I'm happy with where I am.

In last year's elections, 1/4th of the populace here (voting is mandatory) voted for the Vlaams Blok party, who can be best described as arrogant, blatantly neofascist dipfuck nimrods. Luckily the three traditional parties (Liberals, Christian Democrats and Socialists) are refusing to let VB into our governments, but still that's pretty fucking frightening.

Holland and Belgium are two little, prosperous European nations who have been enjoying excellent social security and other luxuries for decades, and it looks like the system is beginning to show cracks. Twenty years from now, something like 50 percent of people here are going to be over 65. Someone's going to have to pay all those pensions.

On top of that, there's the mass immigration of primarily arabs and north africans (and in recent years, Eastern European people) that's getting a lot of people xenophobic and unneccesarily (sp?) reactionary. Recent hate crimes on both sides haven't helped much either.

Um, where was I going with this ? Yeah, The Netherlands still rule. All you Americans who dream of fleeing to Canada - fuck that, move to Europe. It's just that we're not without our troubles either.

Lord FlatHead said:

Um, where was I going with this ? Yeah, The Netherlands still rule. All you Americans who dream of fleeing to Canada - fuck that, move to Europe. It's just that we're not without our troubles either.

Quoted for truth and honesty.

Danarchy said:

Sweden a prime example of well-balnced society

ahahahaha

Well, probably comparatively.

Heh, well meant out of all the countries in the world, the Swedes and the Dutch seem to have made the best places to live in.

Lord FlatHead said:

Twenty years from now, something like 50 percent of people here are going to be over 65. Someone's going to have to pay all those pensions.

So your social medicine is working TOO well...

/busts out the Highlander soundtrack and plays "Who Wants To Live Forever" :P
//doesn't actualy own it

Yeah, we're having a similar problem, but it's because of too much fucking after WW2. :P

Sweden has plenty of issues as well and is far from a utopia. Flathead's description works pretty well for it, except for the part about electing fascists (I certainly haven't heard about anything like that happening, although I don't live there anymore).

As a dutchmen, I'd have to say that the Netherlands has the best government since a long time. In my opinion. They're finanically responsible, they don't try to ignore or cover up problems and they act swiftly.

m0l0t0v said:

Our current government (the most right wing since WWII) has done everthing in its power to destroy this image, so I'd like to know how foreigners view my country.

The image of the Netherlands as a liberal place, where prostitution, soft drugs, gay marriage and euthanasia is legal, still exists in the world, as nothing has changed in that respect.

m0l0t0v said:

If you told me 5 years ago that we would support a pre-emptive war,

The decision to support the war was based on information from the CIA, which turned out to be false.

m0l0t0v said:

join an illegal occupation,

At the moment, I don't think leaving Iraq would be beneficial for the Iraqi people.

m0l0t0v said:

re-introduce deportation,

The government is simply trying to enforce existing immigration laws. Previous governments knew that there was a growing immigration problem, but refused to act.

m0l0t0v said:

pre-emptive arrests

A new law that is only used in rare cases, when public safety is at stake.

m0l0t0v said:

and break down social security

The government is trying to make social security affordable for future generations, while still maintaining a higher level of social security then in the countries surrounding us. As a bonus, they're more actively monitoring social security fraud, something previous governments failed to do.

m0l0t0v said:

Well... now it's reallity.

I'm not complaining.

How do you view the Netherlands?

I don't

I'm still proud of my country, despite the troubles it goes through. I am grateful for all the social systems, the prosperity, the infrastructure, and last but not least: Schiphol!

@ Arno:
As a dutchmen, I'd have to say that the Netherlands has the best government since a long time. In my opinion. They're finanically responsible,

Being a good government is more than just being finanically responsible. Sure, sucking out the weak, elderly, chronically ill, refugees, students etc, is good for the economy, but the government should respect human rights and human dignity.

't try to ignore or cover up problems and they act swiftly.

Yeah they act swiftly. They swiftly joint the 'coallition of the willing' despite the lack of evidence and the obvious fact that the vast majority of the Dutch popultion opposed the war. Now the Kabinet still refuses to explain why they chose to join. In a democracy the government should be able to explain it's actions...

The decision to support the war was based on information from the CIA, which turned out to be false.

Yet, they chose to believe it. It's not the first time the CIA lied you know... What ever happened to those concentration camps in Serbia? Oh, wait they never existed...

At the moment, I don't think leaving Iraq would be beneficial for the Iraqi people.

I do.

The government is simply trying to enforce existing immigration laws. Previous governments knew that there was a growing immigration problem, but refused to act.

Yes, the previous government (which included 2 parties of the current government) made big mistakes keeping refugees waiting for sometimes up to 15 years. The only humane and legal thing to do is let them all stay. Instead our government decided to ignore basic human rights and violate international treatise by literally deporting them. Sometimes to places marked 'unsafe'. 2 people have already been killed after they were forced to return.

A new law that is only used in rare cases, when public safety is at stake.

Like at demonstrations against the governments policies.

The government is trying to make social security affordable for future generations, while still maintaining a higher level of social security then in the countries surrounding us. As a bonus, they're more actively monitoring social security fraud, something previous governments failed to do.

They are taking away civil rights and the social security for the weak so they that future generations can buy them all back... Unless you're rich it sounds like a bad plan to me.

Obviously being Dutch, you know more about the country than the rest of us do.

Most people in my country see the Netherlands as a place where its legal to smoke pot and the only other place in the world you can speak Afrikaans and some one could understand you.

m0l0t0v said:

Being a good government is more than just being finanically responsible. Sure, sucking out the weak, elderly, chronically ill, refugees, students etc, is good for the economy, but the government should respect human rights and human dignity.

This is where our viewpoints differ a lot. The government doesn't steal from the elderly, refugees, students, etc. It simply gives them less money. Which is still a lot more money then the elderly, refugees or students receive in for example the UK, Germany or France. The claim that the dutch government doesn't respect human rights or dignity is therefore way off.

m0l0t0v said:

Yeah they act swiftly. They swiftly joint the 'coallition of the willing' despite the lack of evidence and the obvious fact that the vast majority of the Dutch popultion opposed the war. Now the Kabinet still refuses to explain why they chose to join. In a democracy the government should be able to explain it's actions...

Yet, they chose to believe it. It's not the first time the CIA lied you know... What ever happened to those concentration camps in Serbia? Oh, wait they never existed...

The government was aware of the controversial nature of the war and therefore came up with a compromise: they politically approved the war, but they didn't give any military support. That's a compromise that doesn't really please anyone, but it's also kind of a safe route, I guess.

m0l0t0v said:

Yes, the previous government (which included 2 parties of the current government) made big mistakes keeping refugees waiting for sometimes up to 15 years. The only humane and legal thing to do is let them all stay. Instead our government decided to ignore basic human rights and violate international treatise by literally deporting them. Sometimes to places marked 'unsafe'. 2 people have already been killed after they were forced to return.

On the contrairy, letting these illegal immigrants stay would be illegal. They all had at least two opportunities to make their case, with free, legal help. Now that it's legally proven that they don't seek political refugee, but economical refugee, they have to go.
At least the current government is humane enough to give these people a free trip back and a lot of extra cash to keep them comfortable at home for at least a year. The previous government simply dumped them out on the street, which is why many ended up into prostitution. Or worse.

m0l0t0v said:

They are taking away civil rights and the social security for the weak so they that future generations can buy them all back... Unless you're rich it sounds like a bad plan to me.

Again, the social security is not "taken away", it's mildly reduced to a more affordable and realistic level. A level that can be maintained for longer periods of time, without sending the state into an even larger financial debt. The fact is that the amount of retired people is increasing and the amount of working people is decreasing. Adjustments to the social security must be made to keep everything balanced.

Just to make a quick point about the coalition of the willing and intel of the CIA

Let it be noted that Russian and British intelligence agencies, along with the CIA gave reports of what was in Iraq.

But I'm going off onto a tangent

Isn't it true that you pay something close to %50 of you income back in taxes overthere? or was that sweeden?

(not as bad as that sounds, they take care of most of the essentials so the other %50 is more or less disposable)

Captain Red said:

Isn't it true that you pay something close to %50 of you income back in taxes overthere? or was that sweeden?

It might actually be more than that in Sweden (based on how much you make, of course). I think Norway still has the distinction of being the world's most expensive country though...

Ralphis said:

Just to make a quick point about the coalition of the willing and intel of the CIA

Let it be noted that Russian and British intelligence agencies, along with the CIA gave reports of what was in Iraq.

But I'm going off onto a tangent

They all took the Israeli intelligence as fact, there was only one country feeding that intelligence, Israel, now they are leading America by the nose into a war on Iran and Syria, anybody know what other countries the Israeli oil pipeline from Iraq needs to go thro?, yeh, Syria and Iran. Hope the American people are happy to once again supply American kid's live's to do the work of Israel.

I find it slightly amusing that a Dutch guy asks for an opinion from people who are not Dutch (wasn't specifically stated but I'm assuming thats what he wanted) and then argues with another Dutch guy... tis odd.

Most of the stuff you two are talking about I haven't even heard of before.

The Netherlands seem to have their issues just as every other country does.

Is english a major language over there? I've played with the idea of somehow moving there someday, but I would be worried about the langauge barriers.

david_a said:
I think Norway still has the distinction of being the world's most expensive country though...

Expensive in general or are you just talking about taxes?

Captain Red said:

Expensive in general or are you just talking about taxes?

Expensive in general. My family went there on vacation some years ago and it was quite a nasty shock paying for anything.

Dittohead said:

Is english a major language over there? I've played with the idea of somehow moving there someday, but I would be worried about the langauge barriers.

I think most (all?) European countries teach English in the schools from a very early age. You might have issues with some of the old folk that grew up before this policy came about, but as long as you stick to cities you should be OK.

Psycho Siggi said:

The Netherlands seem to have their issues just as every other country does.

Exactly. The first post made it sound like the whole country is going downhill fast, but that really isn't the case.

The fact that even the most historically liberal Western European nation would now have "pre-emptive arrest" laws serves as a true thermometer for the decay of Western civilization as a whole. These problems belong to no single nation and as they grow in each one, they amplify themselves in the others. Now the question is, when Europe and America are deep within a new dark age, will the rest of the world experience a Renaissance, or will it respond in kind with the sort of fundamentalism we see in the Middle East or with the totalitarianism of China? Imagine a world where no single nation any longer places value upon freedom or human rights. How frightening.

Exactly. The first post made it sound like the whole country is going downhill fast, but that really isn't the case.

It wasn't my intention to make the Netherlands look like hell on Earth, but you can't deny the increasing xenophobia, racism and inequality here.

Last I heard, Norway was the greatest country in the world, and Sweden was #2. I don't know if that changed since last year.

AndrewB said:

Last I heard, Norway was the greatest country in the world, and Sweden was #2. I don't know if that changed since last year.

'Greatest' ? Elaborate.

UN Human Development Index