Come on, help a newbie out [which editor?]

sargebaldy said:

Yeah I have to admit Doom Builder really should make sectors easier to close, since that's my only remaining issue with drawing. DeepSEA's method in that regard is pretty nice. But on the whole I prefer Doom Builder's drawing because it's much more relaxed in how you want to build things and with referencing things properly.

Well thanks for that.

Drawing is actually almost literally the same, except for the differences noted. It's just as relaxed and arguably more so since in DS you CAN draw across multiple lines. You just haven't looked for a great while.

In drawing over multiple lines and if it gets overly complicated, there can be some bad assignments, but almost always you are TOLD about the error. The difference is knowing vs not knowing if a mistake was made :)

For beginners, the extra stuff isn't noticed, however, once you get into more sophisticated projects, it becomes clear there's much more to making levels than just drawing though.

That's why Wintex and XWE exist. The first is inadequate in today's port world. The latter is getting pretty good. The problem is that you have to exit your editor to modify anything that is already loaded in the editor - a PIA!

And there's a list of "wishes" that have existed in DeepSEA for a long time, like the resizable browsers :)

deep said:

Of course. The problem was YOU not knowing anything about editing - not the editor. That's true for learning ANY editor. First there's a great deal of "confusion" and then everything clicks. Nothing new there.

Yeah, except the point of most programs (unless you're deliberately making one to confuse people) is to be user-friendly in that regard. I'll only admit one thing: that I can't remember what the tutorial said. Maybe I had an old version without an interactive tutorial; I don't remember if it was interactive or not. But I know I'm not the only one who got confused by it.

I picked up WadAuthor and made my first map without any errors at all (that I couldn't fix) in about half an hour. No tutorials, no nothing. I lost the map long ago, I wish I could upload it somewhere to prove this little point, but it's not that important.

deep said:

As to whether your admitted laziness is a problem, that just depends on what you want to do in life.

I don't have any reason to go get DeePsea now, and frankly I'd not like to waste the HD space (even if it's a small program, which I can't remember either) for something I have no reason to use. That's not laziness, that's just choosing not to do something that in your case would be pointless.

deep said:

Although started from DEU it immediately had line drawing, graphical visual feedback, etc and now only historically related, unless `~9MB of code vs ~0.5mb of code (in terms of file sizes) is the same to you :)

My interest goes how good you use your 9 MB of code.
I liked DEU2C from Admiral and Sonic, even with this stupid bug concerning creating a sector in a sector.
It was small and handy and never crashed over here.

deep said:

DeePsea controls a bit like DCK - because Ben copied stuff from DeeP and I copied some stuff from him. All the prefab tools are interactive via the mouse and keyboard :) Some people copy stuff but they don't give credit :)

Who cares about prefabs when i cant find a libary on the internet for general constructs?
Thats the idea behind prefabs, creatung constructs that are widley used, for example a prefab of "the wall".

deep said:

DeePsea has 3D edit mode using R3Dedit a specialized version of RISEN3D (where have you been) that displays the level as it would in your port - including real skies and sprite placement (that you desire) or models for the JDOOM guys. Just takes more time to work with a real port engine - but other stuff is in the works.

Hmm, just for a 3d thing editor i wont pay 40 dollars = ~35 Euros.
Just wont do it.

deep said:

Integrated unique PWAD tools (free unlimited use even for shareware) that speed up resource handling and conversion.

XWE ;)

deep said:

Supports DeePsea's hi-res textures, PNG textures and varies the scaling according to port (different ports do it differently). You can even have the textures externally loaded in their raw PNG format - see JDOOM or ZDOOMGL.

Dont use these ports.
Just and only plain simple zdoom.

deep said:

DeePsea edits in 3D levels over 32k linedefs (up to 64k limits for everything) and actually over 64k sidedefs is possible.

Ok, heres something i dont understand.
Who wants to edit 32768 lindefs at the same time? o.O

deep said:

And yes it costs money - just depends on your requirements :)

I just want to play around with mapping. I will never earn money for what i do here, so why should i pay for a programm to do something i do for free?
Just if you ask, everything on my computer besides the games and the OS, is opensource or freeware.
VLC, WinAMP, OpenOffice, Servant Salamander 1.52 (the 2.0 is shareware).
If i am not using it to earn money myself i dont see the sense in using profesional software that costs money, besides most opensource software rules out commercial ones (OOo vs MSOffice)

If there was one thing I could have in DB, it would be to be able to backspace when drawing a sector to delete the last vertex segment, akin to build.

There's no such thing as the best editor, there's only the best editor for you. Try 'em all, see what tickles your fancy.

I use wadauthor, but I reccomend you use Doom Builder. It is getting better and better and eventually it will have like everything you need in an editor.
Deepsea sucks when you're new to Doom. Waduthor is the easiest to learn but learn Doombuilder.
Agent Spork has some good tutorials on his web-site: http://doomrealm.mancubus.net/tutorials.html

Bastet Furry said:

I liked DEU2C from Admiral and Sonic, even with this stupid bug concerning creating a sector in a sector.
It was small and handy and never crashed over here.

Well that's not true. All version of DEU , including ZETH have massive bugs. This I know very well since I rewrote 99% of DEU in DeeP. The original DeeP had more features and was smaller than DEU. What does that tell you :)

Who cares about prefabs when i cant find a libary on the internet for general constructs?

You misunderstand. You are thinking of DB prefabs. DeePsea prefabs consist of 2 types:

1. The first type is an interactive stair, door, wall, rectangle, polygon, dome, tunnel and more. This sort of prefab is dynamic in the sense that before it's created the mouse/keyboard can be used to vary the dimensions and where it is placed.

2. The second type of prefab is just ANY PWAD. Meaning any PWAD you find is a "prefab". Just open and position in your level :)

Thats the idea behind prefabs, creatung constructs that are widley used, for example a prefab of "the wall".

See above. That's one of the interactive ones. Just move and resize as required. There's also a wall with a "window".

This sort of Prefab mode is actually the same as WA, except everyone calls it "sector" editing. IOW, WA is actually prefab editing. There less to learn using prefabs. Just click or select the prefab tools.

XWE ;)

Nothing wrong with XWE. However, there are 2 problems. 1) You have to close your current PWAD open in any editor otherwise it won't work. 2) DS has some safety lump moving features. For example, duplicate name checking and the safety of keeping level lumps from being modified as well as some unique tools for analyzing your data.

Doesn't matter what port you use - the issue is that you have options for doing it various ways. Even for ZDOOM, being able to just pop a different PNG in an external directory is handy for checking out ideas vs putting them in a PWAD. Then when done, put them in the PWAD as TX_START lumps.

Ok, heres something i dont understand.Who wants to edit 32768 lindefs at the same time? o.O

It's not the "same" time. I mean levels that have more than 32k linedefs. If you only do ZDOOM you must be aware that the latest projects exceed those limits. And those limits are causing basic node as well as 3D editing problems :)

I have no problem with you not wanting to spend money on whatever. As with anything, it's up to each person. As I explained elsewhere, I don't buy every tool I would like for my car hobbie, but I do get what I need to save me time. Enough now so that my wife always says "don't you already have enough tools" when I buy another one. All up to each individual.

I do the same thing with my computer stuff. And so does almost everyone else - you BUY hardware to improve your system. That's it's hardware, not software doesn't make any difference. It's money spent on a hobbie - including your internet access (except for students, but even there you are paying for it with your tuition).

armadosia is my first wad and i made it with:

-wadauthor for creating all maps
-deepsea for transform bitmap texture in wad format
-wintex for merge new texture in principal wad
-gl bsp for converte wad to open-gl mode.

Doom builder has an tutorial you can download. it will help you a lot if you pick doom builder. If you don't, do not download it, but go to codeimp.com anyways to see if they have anything interesting there.

I have just started mapping and editing as well. I recommend DoomBuilder(DB) and XWE. DB has a pdf instruction manual that really tells you everything you need to know. After searching a few threads I found some minor instructions for XWE. Basically how put your own music in to the wad and change the title pic. But even without XWE you can build some awesome stuff if you have a little imagination. The DB pdf manual even has a link where you can get some really incredible texture wads. All you'll need is winzip, which you can download free at the winzip website. Also if anyone knows, where I can find XWE instructions, it would be a great help.