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Janderson

Communism that works

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How could communism be made possible? I'm not talking pseudo-communism, I'm talking communism that works. And lets not focus on whether or not there's a leader, we already know that leaders = pseudo-communism. How could the people themselves start to share, how could things get done?

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I once heard that many households run in a similar way to communism...I suppose you could say that such an area is one example of where it works. Of course, differing from household to household.

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For true communism to work then we would need to abolish all governments and start providing all the things that it would normally provide as well as business and comerce

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Janderson said:

How could the people themselves start to share, how could things get done?

frontal lobotomies? genetic manipulation to change our natural way?

joke option: nerve stapling

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BBG said:

For true communism to work then we would need to abolish all governments

Indeed; one compulsion of a government ruled by few-- which we've seen in practice throughout history-- is to lay claim to any civilization that isn't.

"Do you have a flag?"

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Give me a $100,000 a year to cllect garbage (and this is legit, no political or mob hook-ups, assuming they survive).

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Humanity would have to be absolutely perfect, according to our current definitions of the word as applied to people. If that were possible, Communism would be the perfect ideology.

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The notion that "Socialism doesn't work" is something we've been told ever since.. well, ever.
However the economy in China now is booming and China is expected to be the most powerful economical superpower in a few decades.

Is China not proving Socialism works?

All the "critics" will reason:"well, since it's successful it can't really be Socialism now can it? Lets call it `state-Capitalism`. But we'll continue to call it Socialism when China violates some human rights."

Fact is that Socialism worked pretty good in the Soviet union for a while. Equal right for women (long before the West even thought about it), playing a important role in the destruction of the nazzi empire, first satellite, first man in space.

And what about Cuba?
Compared to other Latin American countries Cuba is doing rather well despite the embargo. Lower number of unemployment and streetchildren, Better healthcare (for everybody), social security (for everybody), food (for everybody) and education (for everybody).
Sure Cuba may not be as wealthy as lets say the USA or the Netherlands, but compared to other (Latin American) countries with similar history and climate it's definitely a winner.

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Little more on topic:

Communism or communist society is the name of the social formation, which, according to Marxism is a classless society in which the community as a whole owns all property and where all people enjoy equal social and economic status.
This is exactly the same as what Left wing Anarchists wish to achieve.

Marxists will argue that in order to get to the classless/stateless society a transitional system is needed, which they call Socialism (Like the system in the USSR, China and Cuba (Janderson calls it pseudo-communism)). These societies are suppose to become stateless (communism) after a while).

To achieve socialism some call for revolution (Marxist-Leninsts).
Others say we can achieve socialism through democratic ways (Social Democrates)

And then there's the Left wing Anarchist that don't think we need a transitional system such as socialism; after the revolution they'll start communism right away.

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Fredrik said:

Well, open source (free software/content) is communism and it works.

I think you're confusing "works" with "is physically possible". Even Linus Torvalds has a day job.

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Scientist said:

Is China not proving Socialism works? All the "critics" will reason:"well, since it's successful it can't really be Socialism now can it? Lets call it `state-Capitalism`. But we'll continue to call it Socialism when China violates some human rights."

China's economy isn't being driven completely by communist ideology though. It hasn't for some time and is increasingly becoming capitalist.

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Communists (marxists) were flamed by anarchists in the XIXth century because they said that their society would create a state that would NOT kill itself. Dictature of the proletariat becomes dictature over the proletariat.

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I agree China is does not have pure socialism, no such thing ever existed yet. Just like no form of pure capitalism ever existed; even the USA has labor unions.

China still has classes and the policies of its government aren't doing much anymore to minimize the differences. They are indeed more capitalistic than they ever were. But where do we draw the line? But I agree China will probably keep moving towards capitalism.

Dictature of the proletariat becomes dictature over the proletariat

which is nicely illustrated in Orwell's Animal Farm.

We know it's possible to achieve socialism but can it ever be transformed into communism?
In reality the transition from socialism to communism never happens; Socialism always turned into a state of totalitarian dictatorship, or has transitioned into some form of democracy or capitalism.

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ducon said:

Communists (marxists)


That's like saying "Democrats (Satanists)"...

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The term "communist" is usually used to refer to marxist-leninists; socialist that believe a revolution is needed to achieve socialism. Communists are marxists, revolutionairy marxists.

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How could communism be made possible? I'm not talking pseudo-communism, I'm talking communism that works. And lets not focus on whether or not there's a leader, we already know that leaders = pseudo-communism. How could the people themselves start to share, how could things get done?

Well, to put it simple: We'll need to teach people that worker rights are more important than cheap Big Macs, or fancy Nike shoes.

Raising public awareness might not be enough by itself. People simply do not seem to care...
As long as companies can spend billions on indoctrinating consumers people will prefer Nikes over more 'honest' shoes. Every day, every hour, every minute we are exposed to commercials. No matter were you go companies will try to manipulate you; this is pure propaganda.

Companies will have to be restricted or better yet: nationalized.

I doubt consumers themselves have the power to end the reign of the cartels so they'll need a state to confiscate companies.


If communism is ever achieved to will be the result of cooperation between a socialist state and the masses.

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Cuba has a massive Classic Car scene, the European Union wants to wipe out all classic cars..wait, what kind of political system is the EU?, It certianly isnt democracy, its like some facade of democracy where you elect people from your own country to represent your country in the EU parliment, but they still trample all over your laws and culture and force you to conform to some one-size-fits-none bullshit state where you have to obey and accept everything they throw at you, like ID cards and GPS trackers in your car, which you arent allowed to drive. Any attempt at rebellion against EU rule will be swiftly stamped out and you'll be locked up for 'offending muslims'. What where we talking about again?

[/thread derailment]

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Communism could work extremely well for some aliens species which has an utter lack of such things as greed, self worth and selfishness. For the human race, it'll never be a success.

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NiGHTMARE said:

Communism could work extremely well for some aliens species which has an utter lack of such things as greed, self worth and selfishness. For the human race, it'll never be a success.

It could be said that these are not natural human characteristics, but characteristics that arise in humans when they are forced (or allow themselves) to live unnaturally. Self-absorption is realizable and is something one can work to correct in one's self, and then in others, teaching by example.

Many people seem too quick to give up on governmental ideals.

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Ultraviolet said:

It could be said that these are not natural human characteristics, but characteristics that arise in humans when they are forced (or allow themselves) to live unnaturally.

Ah, right, because there is no competition for food, mates and shelter/territory in the wild

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NiGHTMARE said:
self worth

The aliens would have to keep this one to succeed, though. Not that I'm sure we have it in our non-communism, especially considering the asslicking degrading behavior often found in the business environment.

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Although I consider myself to be a socialist, I do not believe actual communism can ever be achieved. It is more of a symbolic state towards which we must strive without ever reaching it.

I view socialism, not as the perfect way of life, but a the best alternative for capitalism. Capitalism strives for the ultimate police state marked by exploitation, inequality and imperialism. It will only lead to more greed, hunger and war.
To me capitalism is not an option.

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NiGHTMARE said:

Communism could work extremely well for some aliens species which has an utter lack of such things as greed, self worth and selfishness. For the human race, it'll never be a success.

Haven't you watched The Gods Must Be Crazy?

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