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Black Void

Scared away, back today

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About a year back, I began work on what I thought was the most monumental project I'd ever done, even if you disregard the fact that it was creating DooM levels. I was building a hub, one in my view, that was very fun and entertaining, full of all the joy and excitement a DooM level should have. What it didn't have, was an uber, saucy, plastic coating of drooling detail.

In fact, I'm a minimalist - the more simplistic things that I can do that provide fun, the happier person I am. I ended up sending my hub levels to various people, who (almost) all replied the same thing - "Dude, your detail sucks, this is awful, lolz, have a nice day."
This, broke a screw in my head and made me scratch the project - "Why", I figured, "continue with something that I'm trying to do for a game that more than 95% of the people I know, don't even care about? If people from the community who actually play DooM don't appreciate it, then there isn't a point of putting more time into it."
The levels were never ugly, and of course, I make sure all things are aligned, I just dont give 2 cents about making every wall look different, every room having to be architectural work from the time of Romans - that to me, is over-haul and I'd personally like to focus on gameplay.

I'm sure some of you will redicule this thread, but I'm beyond the point of caring - it's been a long, long, time since I last stared at an editor (or a Doomworld forum, for that matter) and I will pick up where I left off, now that I'm trying to recover from mono (and have nothing better to do in my sickly state).

I'll leave off saying this: does over-hauled detail really matter that much? Is there something that I'm missing here? Please, inform me; no pride here =) I'm perfectly willing to take in any useful opinions that people have to offer, thank you.

*Edit - if anyone would like to see my levels first-hand (to help decipher my crazy jibberish) my email is cosmikhorror@yahoo.com*

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Detail is nice, but when im playing I know im not giving the detail the respect it "deserves" so to speak.

I like detail, but I don't notice it nearly as much as the map placement, the overall "theme", the music, and the gameplay.

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Hiiiiii!!

There are many ways to make a map interesting. Layout, gameplay, uniqueness, prettitude, or something else, or whatever. There's no reason to restrict yourself to prettitude. Many maps are nothing but prettitude, in fact I played such a map a while ago. It was very detailed but there was an awful lot of hitscan, the only way to clear a room was to stand outside it and wait for it to clear itself. And worst of all there were barely any stairs or changes in altitude, and it took more than 17 hours to beat. There are many more dimensions in a doom level than x, y, and prettitude.

Consider Espi's new wad. If you haven't tried it yet, try it. Best wad of all time. Ask yourself what makes the maps great.

Hiii though! I also started playing with doom again. Doom is sooo cewl.

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I have to agree with you. I hate detailing, it's pointless to over-haul the detail to a point of no return as it will, eventually, get in the way of gameplay. It can also make a map go from good to bad depending on how it was made, as if too much detail is put in and not enough attention toward the gameplay, it wont matter how good the map looks if it's just got awful to play. I'd love to see your map tho, I bet it's pretty good. I'll send you an email in a bit. =)

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Even if you send it to people and they act like jerks about detail, that shouldn't stop you.

I doubt /newstuff will say 'Well it's got good gameplay but no detail lolz don't download it kthx bye'

Just go ahead and finish it. I know I'll enjoy it :P

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It's one thing to have a map styled completely in just one particular tileset, if I'm using the term correctly. That's gonna get a little boring, at least to me. And I'm talkin' oldschool DOOM95 launcher; I haven't yet gotten any of the other ports yet.

But if the music's good, likely I wouldn't care.

Of course, it's another thing entirely if one goes completely overboard with all the gadgets and gizmos. Use your judgement, dude.

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Hmmm. Nice to see you around again.
I seem to recall playing a level or two of this and not saying such things. You should make it for your own enjoyment, not because someone else might like it. I always found your levels entertaining and with much potential for varied designs. Don't worry about detail, it's overblown and unproductive.

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*Sniffle* Such encouragement! =) Well, I'm glad to see that not everyone looks at detail the same way - and yes, it is my folly for taking what handful of people said and turning it into the way the community must think. Thanks for proving me wrong!

Use3D - I hope I catch you online at some point again! And yes, I do recall you giving me nothing but positive response, I am truely grateful for that =)

Apothem - I recieved your email and I will send you the levels later on tonight; for now, I need some sleep... -_-

Epyo - Right on man! For some reason, DooM just lures you back (for goodness sakes, I'm capitalizing the 'D' and the 'M', this game must have me on a collar). I'd like to know what projects and what-not you've been up to.

*off topic - mono sucks*

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Black Void said:

*Sniffle* Such encouragement! =) Well, I'm glad to see that not everyone looks at detail the same way - and yes, it is my folly for taking what handful of people said and turning it into the way the community must think. Thanks for proving me wrong!

Yes, if you're making something that is primarily intended to be fun to play, be sure to get opinions from people who actual play the game a lot, and not just those who are more interested in what you can do with its resources. And certainly don't junk something that you believe has real potential. You no doubt have a clear view of where your project is headed, and it is very hard for other people to share that vision until the work is near-complete.

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Make a level that plays fun, then go throught it adding detail, like computer screens and windows in blank walls, trims around corridor floors etc..

Edit: detail dosent have to get in the way of gameplay...

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Only a real artist should go for total uber detail. Otherwise just have enough so that the level looks at least somewhat realistic, but the real focus should always be on gameplay, since that's what the game is truly about anyway.

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Not all overly-detailed maps are going to wind up like KDIZD. The popular belief that detail and gameplay are inversely related is completely false: maps that look terrible usually play terribly too.

My current map is insanely detailed, but I've spend as much time perfecting the gameplay as I have detailing (and consequently i probably won't finish the damned thing for a while).

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i know what you are saying about the gameplay but you have to keep a balance between architecture and gameplay because different people may like different things

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Game play > Detail. For me its how the maps playes not how it looks. I have played detailed maps for Doom that suck becouse they focused on level detial insted of more imprtant things like monster and pick up placement.

The hard thing about making a great Doom map is finding a solid middle gorund between the game play and the detail of the map.

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I find that detail is not as important to me as good placement of environmental assets.

It's how you use it, not how much you use.

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It's called having "enough" detail.
Cram 4000 sidedefs into ever room and congratulations, you have a decent-looking wad with decent gameplay just like everyone else.

If you want it to play well and look good simultaneously, use architecture and perfect texturing to your advantage. Don't let "detail" get in the way. Use clean, streamline architecture that is a part of the map and doesn't look tacked on.
Also, avoid the whole "room -> hallway -> room -> hallway" shit. That is another mistake people make (and another topic in itself).

Maybe later tonight, I will show you some of my maps so you can get a better grasp on this "enough detail" thing I preach.

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Gameplay is the only essential factor to a map. How could anything else be? Good level flow is also important but as long as detail-wise it's on par with the original Doom (which isn't hard) then it's appearance surely won't be a problem. After all it wasn't back in '94, why should it be now?

Personally I think it would be refreshing to release a map-set that is deliberatly sans detail so the levels be judged on what really counts.

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EarthQuake said: Maybe later tonight, I will show you some of my maps so you can get a better grasp on this "enough detail" thing I preach.


I actually wouldn't mind checking out some of your maps - you can send them on over to cosmikhorror@yahoo.com whenever you get the chance!

Wow, thanks fellow doomers! I never expected to see this many replies, hehe - for the record, I've been editing on and off since 1995 and do understand how to make things look like eye candy. Nevertheless, I still don't like doing that - I'd rather make sure things arn't symmetrical and that levels arn't linear ('linear levels', is something I really need to work on! ;-) instead.

Anywho, great responses! I feel like a little kid again, tee-hee! Time to go back to mapping ~

-Void

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I really do0nt think excessive amounts of detail is a must... hell, go play run buddy, and some of that guys other maps. Not a lot of detail, but heavy on the awesome gameplay. If anybody elses maps followed the style of run buddy, I would *******ely be interested and not get too wrapped up in *lolz bare wall*.

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Detail doesn't matter, it alone doesn't make a map look 'good'. IMO nice architecture and good texture/lighting choices matter most (and of course gameplay).

Most of the time detail just gets in te way (damn bits sticking out that you get stuck on all the time :P)

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Black Void said:

I actually wouldn't mind checking out some of your maps - you can send them on over to cosmikhorror@yahoo.com whenever you get the chance!
-Void

Black Void:
I noticed there might be problems just throwing a bunch of maps at you that use various source ports in various games, so I decided to take some screenshots:
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
IMHO, I feel these maps look good given how entertaining they can be. And you can't possibly say they don't look good from the screenshots. I've tested all of them extensively online and the detail does not interfere with the gameplay whatsoever.

To everyone else: sorry for the self promotion, but I couldn't really think of any good examples other than my own maps.

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