Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
Espi

It is done =D

Recommended Posts

Wow, this map is phenomenal! The thing that separates this from other maps is the plethora of new art. Wires hanging from ceilings with bodies dangline among them, textures designed to mimic 3d platforms, the level with the big heater looking textures with angled sides to look sloped. Everything about this screams professional. I love this Espi!

Share this post


Link to post
ravage said:

How did you ever get into Doom at all.


Same way I did - by playing the original exe and it's pwads for many years. I did my time with exe mapping too, had to work around lots of weird limits and bugs in my first 3 projects...the difference being that (like Scuba) I like to be open-minded and creative maps, and personally prefer those to the same old textures with the same old sounds and (to a much lesser extent) the same old monsters. I was blown away by ZDoom when I first saw it's features in action (just after I released my 3rd project) and immediately went about learning the ways of scripting etc. for project no.4 (LTSD) and it turned out to be exponentially better than my original vision of it (which was exe with a bit of Boom). To me it just seems stupid to stick to the limitations of the original exe (both SP and DM) when so much more can be done with source ports and their features to make new experiences in both game modes.

Share this post


Link to post

The Ultimate DooMer said:
I like to be open-minded and creative maps, and personally prefer those to the same old textures with the same old sounds and (to a much lesser extent) the same old monsters.

Yeah, good thing there's ZDoom or else we couldn't change the sounds, textures and monsters.

Anyhow, you don't design like Scuba at all; he uses the materials to make something else while you expand on an existing base. A classic designer, on the other hand, works on that base exclusively. I doubt Steve's development as a wad designer can be equated to yours.

Back when I discovered ZDoom I said "wow" too and I used it for a few months exclusively, and I think it's pretty cool that some people like it a lot (along with other more or less "advanced" engines) and can use it (and them) for whatever they find crucial, but between competitive play, and not just speed running but also simply "exhaustive" play on any decent map there is no need nor time to add more features to the game when the elegant and minimalist design offers infinite playability. I learned they would get in the way of that development based on practice and exchange.

Of course, I don't think others are stupid because they like something different than what I prefer. That'd be rather narrowminded, and my self confidence is enough for me to perceive that others may well be seeing and valuing different things. Some of which I am familiar with, some not so much.

Man, some people play and mod totally different games altogether, some even move from game to game looking for different design possibilities, and when they feel they mastered one they move to the next; so they are more open minded than both Doom and ZDoom mappers because of that?

Narrowmindedness has nothing to do with the amount of features the game you play or prefer has, nor with sticking with one engine or using 56 different ones, it's about being different and not being able to appreciate the difference in others without being like them.

Share this post


Link to post

Excellent work. Maybe not worth five years waiting ;)... As someone already said: room connectivity is perfect, as well as usage of default Doom textures. It also has some atmosphere similar to that in original Doom 1 (+the music)... My only complain would be about too many places in the same light level...

Anyway 4+/5

Share this post


Link to post
Scuba Steve said:

It takes the same level of skill to make a good level for a port without restrictions. I hate the "vanilla = better" mentality. Anyone who uses the original exe TWELVE YEARS after the initial release is a fool.

I agree.
If it wasn't for Zdoom (and EDGE back then) I wouldn't give a shit about Doom.

Share this post


Link to post

Well, excuse me. :/ I just happen to make levels (such as they are, never shown yet to you all and such) for vanilla because Zdoom's tasty features are things I have not yet become familiar with yet. I didn't know that using vanilla as baby steps was necessarily a bad thing.

Share this post


Link to post

To be honest, if you're going to remove the limits of the original executable, then what's the point anymore? What's the point of not just mapping for a modern engine and be rid of limitations entirely?

Imagine someone were to make a homebrewn NES game (which people do) and then proceeded to modify an open source emulator to be able to do things that weren't possible on the original NES. Same thing. You might as well just go full OpenGL in that case. What's the point?

Just wondering.

Share this post


Link to post

If you're just going to use the original exe what's the point in owning a computer faster than a 486? It's just wasted processing power. And you shouldprobably only run it in DOS since anything else is just unecessary.

The point is, even with source ports it is STILL Doom. Telling me to "just use Quake 4" is ridiculous. Just because someone added mouselook or new editing features doesn't mean it's not Doom. I can use those new features to turn the game INTO something not Doom, but just using an advanced engine or some features doesn't change the game. Editing for a modern engine is a totally different experience, one I have no wishes in learning since the curve is so high. Doom is simple, and can produce many modern day effects using an advanced engine for it and doesn't require 500 man hours making a level or a 3000 polygon model with 3 512x512 skins and a bump and specularity map.

I've done all I can in the vanilla exe and want to expand out to see what else can be done with the game.

Share this post


Link to post

How about we get back to talking about how awesome this project is instead of arguing about wether or not a port with added features is or is not Doom (short answer: it is)?

This wad gets a 12.0 on the 10.0 scale of awesomeness.

Share this post


Link to post
Nikanoru said:

To be honest, if you're going to remove the limits of the original executable, then what's the point anymore? What's the point of not just mapping for a modern engine and be rid of limitations entirely?

Imagine someone were to make a homebrewn NES game (which people do) and then proceeded to modify an open source emulator to be able to do things that weren't possible on the original NES. Same thing. You might as well just go full OpenGL in that case. What's the point?

Just wondering.



What's the point of working with the source if the limits are there to stay? That sounds like pure nonsense to me.

For that the original EXE or Doom95 would have been enough.

Share this post


Link to post

Nikanoru said:
To be honest, if you're going to remove the limits of the original executable, then what's the point anymore? What's the point of not just mapping for a modern engine and be rid of limitations entirely?

Once you release the source of a game, if anyone cares about it, you're bound to see many variations. It's not much different than having the wad specs and producing a variety of PWADs, as opposed to the IWADs only, or seeing a bunch of EXE variations with DeHackEd. Naturally, that doesn't remove the possibility to play the base game or edit it in its "classical" way, and simply adds stuff, giving more usage possibilities for the games.

Then this discussion started because some whiny bitch (I forgot who it was) felt momentarily insecure and had to call people using, or editing for, the DOS engines "foolish" and "hate-worthy."

Another great wad for Doom2 is in /newstuff as we speak, even; we had seen the first few levels some time back and now it's a complete megawad.

Share this post


Link to post
Graf Zahl said:

What's the point of working with the source if the limits are there to stay? That sounds like pure nonsense to me.

For that the original EXE or Doom95 would have been enough.


Some NES emulators add options and filters to enhance the game's graphics. But nobody makes NES games that don't comply with the specifications of the NES. See where I'm going? It's not the same of course, but it's not exactly nonsense either.

But I don't mean to start some hateful argument, I'm seriously interested in what drives people. Personally, I see Doom mapping as a "game", with all the "rules" that go with it. If I want to do something more (and keep it simple, like Scuba said) I actually like the Build engine better (hmm...GZDoom doesn't happen to have per-surface light levels does it?).

Though the last time I did anything with a comparatively modern engine was Unreal 1, and I actually found that pretty simple to work with. In fact, much simpler even than "fake" 3D engines when it comes to creating geometry that actually looks 3D (...duh) and lighting as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Nikanoru said:

But I don't mean to start some hateful argument, I'm seriously interested in what drives people. Personally, I see Doom mapping as a "game", with all the "rules" that go with it.


"Rules" are there to be changed. If all we got was still standard Doom maps with all the limitations and restrictions in place I wouldn't be here anymore - and many others as well.

If I want to do something more (and keep it simple, like Scuba said) I actually like the Build engine better


But I like Doom better than any Build game. So it wouldn't help me to create 'better' Doom levels.

(hmm...GZDoom doesn't happen to have per-surface light levels does it?).


Only for floors and ceilings. The map format doesn't have any support for this so it has to be added by more complicated means

Though the last time I did anything with a comparatively modern engine was Unreal 1, and I actually found that pretty simple to work with. In fact, much simpler even than "fake" 3D engines when it comes to creating geometry that actually looks 3D (...duh) and lighting as well.


That's a matter of preference. But what does it help? These games are not our favorite game so they aren't of much help.

Share this post


Link to post

I find it fantastic that a collection of maps with such great architecture can run on doom2.exe. It just proves that wads can look brilliant with the limits. It also expresses the mappers talent.

Share this post


Link to post
Graf Zahl said:

That's a matter of preference. But what does it help? These games are not our favorite game so they aren't of much help.


True, true. Even though an experienced Halflife 2 mapper might raise an eyebrow at people on this website, they'll have to respect the fact that Doom is what we like and that we take its inherent quirks for granted.

But shouldn't that go for sourceport mappers versus vanilla mappers too?

I mean, saying that Suspended in Dusk is awesome for making vanilla Doom look like that doesn't make Action Doom any less impressive does it? And worshipping Action Doom for stretching the boundaries of what is possible in Doom, does that worsen the experience of any great Halflife 2 mods?

I think any creation should be appreciated based on what it sets out to do. That's just me though.



(edit: changed "Source" to "Halflife 2" to avoid confusion)

Share this post


Link to post

Well I'll be dmaned. I have seen several source-port flame wars, but this vanilla vs. any port is somewhat unusual.

Could you just please refer to the map itself, and review it? Espi doesn't really need to know oppinion about what *.exe are you using... and no offense.

Share this post


Link to post
ellmo said:

Well I'll be dmaned. I have seen several source-port flame wars, but this vanilla vs. any port is somewhat unusual.

Uh, you must be new here.

Share this post


Link to post

This map style is really not my cup of tea. Well the new textures and their using for some effects such as the spaceship in map 4 are pretty cool but not so the levels themselves. I can't see any originality or a new great idea in map designs and layout but I can see nice mountains at the start then some nice gray halls but it becomes still the same after a while, just gray hallways, gray room and neverending gray hallways again. Well at least in map04 changed to a metal hallways...
I didn't want to make somebody angry here ... just wanted to let you know, that there are also some rare people who don't like this.
I wrote it because I looked forward to play this after reading so all nice words about it ... and was disappointed a bit.:(((

Share this post


Link to post
Grazza said:

Uh, you must be new here.

I would rather say I don't pay much attention to flamewars.

Share this post


Link to post
ellmo said:

I would rather say I don't pay much attention to flamewars.


Heh, sums it up for me too.


Anyway, I just got through the first level last night. They way the map was designed there wasn't much for GZDoom to "enhance", but it still was one of the best looking maps I have seen as of yet (although my "played wad" list isn't that long).

Scary thought is how this particular map set could have been made several years ago, I mean...it's stellar now with all the newer, better-looking wad competition, it would have blown away the competition back in 2000.

Share this post


Link to post
Nikanoru said:

True, true. Even though an experienced Halflife 2 mapper might raise an eyebrow at people on this website, they'll have to respect the fact that Doom is what we like and that we take its inherent quirks for granted.

But shouldn't that go for sourceport mappers versus vanilla mappers too?

I mean, saying that Suspended in Dusk is awesome for making vanilla Doom look like that doesn't make Action Doom any less impressive does it? And worshipping Action Doom for stretching the boundaries of what is possible in Doom, does that worsen the experience of any great Halflife 2 mods?

I think any creation should be appreciated based on what it sets out to do. That's just me though.



(edit: changed "Source" to "Halflife 2" to avoid confusion)


I'd give you a root beer right now if I could. Smart thinking.

Share this post


Link to post
Killionaire said:

Scary thought is how this particular map set could have been made several years ago, I mean...it's stellar now with all the newer, better-looking wad competition, it would have blown away the competition back in 2000.


Even scarier thought is how this particular map set could have been made in 1994. Would have certainly blown away the competition, hehe. ;D

Seriously, though...awesome job, Espi.

Share this post


Link to post
Scuba Steve said:

I didn't know there was a flamewar going on here.

okay... an argument... sheesh

Share this post


Link to post

Awesome work, Mr. Espi. It's a classic for sure.

Very well might be the best level design I've seen it Doom, too. The detail is outstanding, but it figures, having been 5 years in development. Pretty much perfect monster placement, texture usage, and everything.

A little slow on the action. Had skill 4 been skill 3, and 4 had been ultra-violence, I would've liked it even more.

But then again, I always start with skill 4, so then neither I nor many others would've experienced the careful gameplay it currently exhibits.

WONDERFUL.

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×