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Captain Red

Doom\II hardest maps

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I have no idea how anybody has the patience to be faffing around firing rockets off that bloody platform in map30, I really don't

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Well, first of all, all MAP30 varieties are supposed to be hard. Apart from that...

In Doom II, either MAP15 (Industrial Zone) or MAP16 (Suburbs), if started from scratch in UV mode. There is a lot of space to maneuver, but when I played that, I didn't use the mouse, so this probably explains it. 16 was especially treacherous; in 15 you can just find a high ground and you are fine (the cyberdemon in a confined space near the exit is the problem -- of course, you can take a different exit), but 16 is the one where I mostly was on the run. There is barely enough ammo to kill all enemies, and dumb as monster AI may have been in Doom, the map is designed in such a way that there isn't much safe ground; there is only one room/building which you can more or less easily clear and take defensive position at, and AFAIR it requires a key (maybe I'm wrong). Plus it has too many windows which can be shot through by monsters. There is also one where you can plain _hide_, without being able to hurt anything, but also without being able to get out later as the only exit will be swamped. Stay too long anywhere else and you will surely be outflanked; with that, you will have a couple of archviles running around, setting you on fire from across the map and raising all the monsters you just killed.

I didn't have much problems with MAP29, but then again, I didn't try it from scratch!

In TNT mission pack, MAP04 (Wormhole) was probably the hardest on UV, simply because I chose the wrong tactic. You have two similar looking buildings which you can teleport between. The problem is, there are archviles in one of the main halls. The way I originally killed the bad guys is from behind a door. Open, shoot, close; open, shoot, close, etc. So many dead monsters were crushed in the doorways. When an archvile raises such a monster, they will be in noclip mode -- can travel through walls and are invincible to straight shots (they can only be killed with area effect weapons). So imagine my surprise when I was running with 10 health and no ammo left, thinking that, well, I'll clear the main halls again when I find some ammo, but for now I'm safe in these underground passages -- lo and behold, a pinky comes out of the wall and takes a final bite... There was also an imp like that. That was pretty far into the map, too, so I didn't want to replay it from scratch; I think I reloaded from close by, ran away and finally found some rockets to get rid of the cheaters.

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Captain Red said:

perfect haterd

Perfect name.
Map 28 was the hardest and scariest map to me. Especially the end where the Archvile and the Hellknight (or Baron, I can't quite remember which it was) pop out of the floor at you.

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Pa3PyX said:
in 15 you can just find a high ground and you are fine (the cyberdemon in a confined space near the exit is the problem


There is no Cyberdemon in Doom 2, map 15. Are you thinking of some other map?

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Kristian Ronge said:

There is no Cyberdemon in Doom 2, map 15. Are you thinking of some other map?

He's talking about Zdaemon. That foul, hellspawn Raider made it so that there are extra enemies in certain wads. "To evan owt teh gaimpla" or some crap like that... There is no "Gameplay" in Zdaemon... Just the same damn thing over and over again.

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No, actually I was talking about vanilla Doom II. There _is_ a cyberdemon on MAP15, but only in multiplayer mode -- which is what I forgot. But it is out in the open, not near the exit, you are right -- there's only a hell knight, a baron of hell, and a bunch of imps around the walkway. So I take that back.

Yet I could swear there was some map with cyberdemon sitting right on the exit pad -- and it wasn't MAP29. Which map was that?

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I think it was that map that contains the secret teleporter to the wolfenstein level(the first one). Just a wild guess.

edit: No I'm wrong, only thing I recall of the map in question is a shitload of arachnotrons in a big ass room. Sorry for the vagueness, haven't played the old DOOMS in quite some time.

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Tom Hall's Map10 has a Cyberdemon at the exit (it teleports from the exit to a room above, and back and forth.) Plus that map also has Arachnotrons in a courtyard, and in a dark room where the BFG9000 is hidden.

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I remember that Cybie...damn killed (and telefragged) me a few times...until I found out how to get Invincibility.

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baronofhell said:I think it was that map that contains the secret teleporter to the wolfenstein level(the first one). Just a wild guess.

MAP15, Industrial Zone. That's what I was thinking of, too, but no.

myk said:Tom Hall's Map10 has a Cyberdemon at the exit (it teleports from the exit to a room above, and back and forth.) Plus that map also has Arachnotrons in a courtyard, and in a dark room where the BFG9000 is hidden.

That's it, Refueling Base. Thanks for refreshing my memory. Invincibility was in a T-shaped passage above the room to which the cyberdemon teleports, I think. That's right, once you got that, you could make a short work of that cyberdemon with the BFG.

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Yeah, not to mention the massive amount of free Energy Cells. Point-blanking Cybies with a BFG and Invulnerability with replacement ammo...oooooh...so good...

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Yeah, that's true...but it takes 3 perfect BFG hits to bring him down, so it'd be hard to point-blank him more than once.

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No, two can do the trick. Get him with a fullish dose of traces each time and he's likely to go down.

If you don't know what "traces" are, read the BFG FAQ (and/or the summary in the intro here).

If you want to practice this in safety, I can warmly recommend thissuxx map25. Of course, on normal maps, it's the "getting him with a fullish dose of traces" that takes the skill and the timing (not to mention courage).

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In ZDoom getting good tracer damage is not a problem so 2 shots will almost always do the trick. It's a bit harder in PrBoom if you consider the chance of a blockmap bug lowering the damage. (Edit: And thats exactly what just happened to me :P)

My old ZDoom .63a demo of map10: http://forum.zdoom.org/download.php?id=2428

Nothing fancy just gets the job done.

Of course there's always the odd chance of a cyber shooting two sets of rockets one right after another so unless the timing is perfect you can never be 100% sure.

Edit: Ya it is harder in PrBoom, but when you compare it to ZDoom almost anything is harder in Pr :P.

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Always wondered why it took me at least 3 BFG shots to bring down a cyberdemon (even at point blank range), whereas spider mastermind can be brought down with one at the same range, if aimed directly. The former only has 1.3 times more hitpoints than the latter. [Must be because spider is wider, so it gets more of the splash damage cone?]

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Belial said:

Edit: Ya it is harder in PrBoom, but when you compare it to ZDoom almost anything is harder in Pr :P.

It's due to the changes made in Zdoom 2.0.51.

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For Doom 1, I have to say E2M2. The huge map and almost randomly placed enemies make it seem like there are thousands and thousands of enemies.

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Heh. E2M6 used to be a serious problem for me on NM, back when I thought an encounter with a baron in the darkness was a random thing.

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Yes, E2M6 can be played with a lot of control in NM... *until* you grab the red key. From there on in, whether or not you'll reach the exit is completely up to chance. It all depends on whether or not a couple of demons and a Baron have decided to hold their annual Baron/Demon Convention outside of that door.

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Indeed. But for some reason on all of my recent runs I've only had demons at that door and the baron was nowhere to be seen. OTOH the white hallway is now usually blocked by demons+baron halfway between the maze and the blue key, which was a rare case earlier. This is probably caused by doing the red key part much faster. Still, it's much easier to evade the baron in the hallway than it was in the maze.

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Yeah, it's pretty much out of your control. Sometimes, I've been lucky and the Baron + demons have parked themselves down the hallway right "before"/"after" the hallway closest to the wooden part (you know, the empty and useless one). That's the only way to get a really fast time in NM on that map...

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Craigs said:

Perfect name.
Map 28 was the hardest and scariest map to me. Especially the end where the Archvile and the Hellknight (or Baron, I can't quite remember which it was) pop out of the floor at you.

I found The Spirit World really easy, even with a Pistol start. On UV, 2 Archies pop out at you (or was that a door unloading them at you in the same room?). I think it's an Archie and Baron on HMP.

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