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The Unknown

Should the demons fight each other?

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I think that some demons should figh whit each other. Like a Cyber demon that wants to controll a smaller army of demons and it has already a leader and they have to fight or you are againts 30 demons and some of them start to fight cause they hate each other not like in doom that they have to be hit by anothers fire ball or homing missile

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This was always one of the most fun aspects in Doom and Quake gameplay! In Doom2 for example, the court yard level, where you could make most of the monsters eleminate themselves :)
Or in Quake, when you could get a Shambler and a Vore fight each other, and you could just stand there and watch those baddies punching each other :)

It should definately be in Doom3. It should somewhat depend on the monsters character, and the hierarchy. Bull demons could behave like aggressive animals, but imps should fear the bigger monsters, etc.

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I would be really surprised if this wasn't possible with the script they're coding for the level's logic.

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I think that some demons should figh whit each other. Like a Cyber demon that wants to controll a smaller army of demons and it has already a leader and they have to fight or you are againts 30 demons and some of them start to fight cause they hate each other not like in doom that they have to be hit by anothers fire ball or homing missile

Now that would be awesome. I would like to see a Baron and Caco duke it out without one or the other being provoked by one or the other's projectiles/biting/slashing. It would be cool to see them fight each other 'cause they really hate each other, because one think it's over the other, as an example.
It would be nice if all the enemies could do something like this.

[ZAL]I MUST SHRINK MY SIG[/ZAL]

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John Carmack stated that the he would be happy to let advanced AI to the concern of third parties. So I do not expect anything but scripted events. I am afraid that real leadership wars or monsterclan battles triggered by AI consious monsters will not be part of DOOM3.

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Actually he was talking about realistic human behavior. But yeah, I don't think we'll see this kind of clan in-fighting just for the simple fact that alters the game flow. It's better to have total control over these kind of things, and that's what the scripting is for.

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DoomBoy, any caco thinking it's 'over' a Baron would need it's floating head examined, it normally takes at least five or six (consecutively) to down a Baron. I always made the Baron in Limbo kill off all the cacos, took ages for the sucker to fall.
You can't have the monsters rather fight themselves rather than player, that would make difficulty impossible to determine which would make designers lives a nightmare

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Heres a good stratedgy to beat Doom, E3M8 in Nightmare, really easy.

You run strait, and go through the giant pil;-box like building in the center, and get the plasma rifle. Keep going strait, go up the stairs, collect rockets. Now head to the Barron, circle him, until the Spider starts shooting, then stand behind Baron, and the Spier will hit him. He gets pissed and attacks Spider. Run behind spider and start shooting with the plasma rifle, and then the rocket luancher. If he lives, and kill the Baron, it wont matter, cause one of the 2 cacos more'n likely already shot the Spider,and now he'll go after them instead.

This is the kinda monster fighting against another, that I want to see return in DOOM.

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Quite frankly the monster in-fighting should be disabled unless a script specifically requires it. That kind of strategy doesn't only make you look like a skilled player, but also totally ruins the idea of an evil supreme power. I mean, wtf? Why on Hell that Baron would attack the SpiderMastermind? It's the gayest thing ever...

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The idea was that the creatures were basically hot heads who didn't like having their tempers tested...

Well, be fair Zaldron I mean, what would you do if someone on your side shot you and you weren't the brightest imp in the herd, you'd be pissed wouldn't you? Especially if you didn't know the former human in question. You might think he'd changed sides. you'd want to shove a fireball up his weedy human ass.

Nah, the in-fighting stays, but only as a result of an accident.

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The 'In-fighting' is definitely one of the most instinct provoking aspects of Doom.It's such natural thing to experience,happens in nature all the time.It's especially good when there's a fine ammo/monster balance and you HAVE to provoke some in-fighting,a well designed map will do this.

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But the hierarchical system on Hell would be dominated by complete fear. I can accept the idea of weaker underlings being destroyed by the higher powers just for the sake of entertainment, but not the opposite.

If a Cyberdemon hit me with a rocket by accident, I'm sure as Hell I'm not gonna even think about eating a second one.

That's why I made an example using the Spider Mastermind, DooM's grand finale, master of everything related to the invasion, and a Baron of Hell who's nothing more than a Lieutenant or something...

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My theory of the (Doom) demon heirarchy:
First there are great demons, such as the IoS.
Spider Masterminds lead certain provinces, bases, or invasions.
Cyberdemons are generals, a handful work for each mastermind, keeping the barons in line.
Barons all lead a small army of knights.
Knights are the elite troops of the barons.
Demons are shock troops, good for surprise assults or cleaning out areas.
Imps are the foot soldiers, huge armies of which overpower their enemies.
Zombies are cannon fodder, raised because the bodies of the dead were taking up too much space. They are just decoys so that the real demons can come in from behind.

The rest of the demons have specific jobs, for instance Archvilles are medics/preists, cacos are aerial units, and spectres are elite troops among the pink demons. Maybe I'll make a story based on this. I duuno.

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It all makes sense now....the spectres are a special strike team. The pain elementals, bombarder aerial units and the Lost Souls their ammo. OMG and the Mancubi are heavy artillery and the Revenants light artillery. Oh my!!11

This may sound dumb, but I suppose the Mastermind has enough brain to actually device a rational strategy. :)

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What happens when all hell breaks lose? Chaos reigns.All hierachy goes outta the window.And what would be the punishment if the hierachy is not adhered to,banishment to Hell? Wait a minute,isn't that where they're from anyway.Are they going to be made to feel 'good' if they obey orders,I don't think so.The only way order can be maintained is by a show of power and what greater power than 'mess with me an' I'll kill ya.'

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I think this is going to be Doom3s biggest problem. Id are going to make a scripeted, linear singleplayer game, but part of the original dooms genius was that its was NOT scripted. Even the basic ai would still chase you through halls and hear and see you. the open endedness of the levels made BOTH the single-player and the multiplayer so great AT THE SAME TIME. The company is currently under the delusion that you cant have both, even leaving the ai to a third party (which is one of the stupidest ideas ever)!

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The company is currently under the delusion that you cant have both, even leaving the ai to a third party (which is one of the stupidest ideas ever)!

That's not true. Jim Dosé, formed id employee is working on it.

Games are so complex today you can't just make your best in everything. There's a lot of competition out there, you must learn to focus only on the things that make your game work.

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Games may be getting more complex, but not to the point that you outsource extremeley importatnt elements to other sources. Hopefully Jim Dose IS doing the ai and its fit into the game and your right. However i still hear talks about multiplayer being outsourced (like in wolf) and separate demos done by outside sources. I hope this doesnt become an industry trend, because its blatantly unartistic and would ruin continuity.

Besides, wouldnt it make things LESS COMPLEX to have the ai be able to do things on its won, rather than scripting the whole game?

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If we could make real AIs, sadly that's not a possibility right now just as it was imposible to render a textured triangle a couple of years ago. Give it some time, if it's not DOOM 3 then it will be id's next franchise.

The biggest problem with AI behavior is that it would be completely impossible to beta test. No matter what you do bugs will always surface. And you can't have bugs in these critical factors, cause it may just make a monster get stuck in a corner, but it could also ruin the level's logic and get you stuck forever.

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There won't be the same amounts of monsters in Doom3 as in the other Doom's so monsters fighting each other wouldn't be as beneficial as before. I'm pretty sure it will be in there just for the realism of it.

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Hate to sound like a freak, but it wouldn't be a Doom game without monsters fighting each other. Also Doom pretty much "invented" the monster infighting in the fps.

It'll be seriously lame if you couldn't coerce at least *some* of the critters to hammer on each other IMHO.

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nice theory,danarchist .it sounds interesting.like it is army of darkness (or call it army of hell).that coming to dominate the human world and turn it to be inferno-fire world like the place they are from by the command of SIN (or SATAN)

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I say the final Boss should be the goatse.cx man. He could launch those skull cubes out of his ass at you. And yes, John Romero's head would be in there =]

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as long as they get his hair "right" he won't mind at all.

He'll insist that id blow as much money coding a physics model for his hair as he blew making Daikatana.

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nice theory,danarchist .it sounds interesting.like it is army of darkness (or call it army of hell).that coming to dominate the human world and turn it to be inferno-fire world like the place they are from by the command of SIN (or SATAN)

I kinda got the idea from the fiend races in D&D's Planescape setting.

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I would love to play a mod which is located in a barber shop with Romero sitting in a chair, and your only weapons are: Scissors, combs, electric clippers, and some gel. HMMUAHAHA

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