Tookie Williams Put To Death

Move to Saudi Arabia. I think with such an attitude you'd be welcome there.

There's a lot of reasons why almost any civilized country (with one exception) doesn't use the death penalty.

Janderson said:
To be civilised you need law and for people to follow laws motivation is needed.

Crime is the law's motivator. Thank the burglars and murderers for inspiring civilization. All hail evil!

The death penalty is for the poor and those who fall from the grace of power groups which are the ones capable of managing crime effectively (dealing with it, perpetuating it, or molding it.) The death penalty is applied when things go out of hand (like killing opposing forces in a struggle; thus military style executions are sometimes accepted but not civilian sentences) or to impose terror.

Note that like the death penalty, any sanction against crime will fall way more easily on the poorer and less equipped parts of society, but unlike death, most other measures are not irrevocable and ultimate.

I consider the death penalty cowardly and sick; it's also an attribution of power to the authorities which is unacceptable. I'd rather reserve the right to kill to myself and not grant that power to others instead. By inclination I'd be much more likely to kill people who live in a society that accepts the death penalty than those in one that don't. If killing is allowed, anyone can do it. If you think killing is okay, I'll consider killing you, too.

Lutrov71 said:

I completely agree with Relica, I have no sorrow for murderers, rapists etc. being killed. They are clearly not appreciative of life if they can commit such crimes like that. They don't deserve to live, nor have any valid reason to.

And I agree with you.

/me watches graf from far away, watching him flail around like anyone gives a crap where he tells people to "move".

Obviously a cultural difference is evident here.

myk said:

By inclination I'd be much more likely to kill people who live in a society that accepts the death penalty than those in one that don't.

That makes no damn sense to me.

Also, it's doesn't, not don't.

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Psyonisis said:
Also, the death penalty isn't about justice; it's about revenge.

tell me; what is the difference between justice and revenge?

Job said:
That makes no damn sense to me.

Their acceptance of the death penalty means they accept being killed. I have more respect for those who shun such practices, understanding what it means to accept transferring the ability to kill to the state or the law.

Also, it's doesn't, not don't.

Please double check all corrections to avoid embarrassment; don't refers to the people that do not live in such a society.

mallis said:

tell me; what is the difference between justice and revenge?

As far as I know of, and pardon me for being vague, it's the difference between serving the people and serving yourself.

mallis said:

the celebs that were whining about this are fools and morons.

Too true. It's a fucking bandwagon.

KwadDamyj said:

As far as I know of, and pardon me for being vague, it's the difference between serving the people and serving yourself.

so justice is just revenge on 'behalf' of the people.

that, imho, is even worse. when people say 'justice is done', that's what they really mean. They have had their vengence without getting their own fingers sticky.

This is sort of related to my post in the "Death" thread, but here goes.

I think the death penalty is an effective form of deterrient for crime, because most people are afraid of death, and thus are less likely to commit a death penalty crime like murder. Those who arn't afraid of death (usually for religious or philosophical reasons) tend to have some sort of built-in barrier to commiting crime anyway.

So as a scare tactic (you kill, you are killed), I think it works. As an actual form of punishment, it kinda falls short because it doesn't really make the killer care about what he's done. In that case, I think solitary confinement would be the best idea.

Most prisons today allow prisoners to leave their cells occasionally, eat decent meals, use the gym, wander the grounds, etc etc etc. What kind of punishment is that? Some people have such bad lives that they commit crimes just to stay in prison, where they know they can live comfortably, if a little restricted. For minor crooks, this is probably mostly okay, but for hardcore rapists, murderers, child molestors, and other such scum, I recommend this (it'd be cheaper, too).

Be confined to a single small cell, just big enough to walk maybe a stride in each direction. A cot, and a toilet. Barred window if you're lucky. Head shaved, a simple prison jumpsuit. Enough food/water to keep you relatively healthy, maybe once or twice a day. No human contact at all, besides the window in your door where food comes in. Maybe one phone call every few years, occasional letters. Guards don't speak to you. Minimal medical care. For the entire length of your sentence, perhaps life. That would be Hell on Earth. No person in their right mind would subject themselves to that kind of torture.

I personally don't really have an opinion on the death penalty, but if I did, and if I supported it, I'd state that the death penalty means the bastards won't do it again.

That is all.

I don't find it to be much of a deterant... First off, there really aren't that many executions compared to the amount of people in prison for the same crime. Anyone who does know that also knows that going to prison is an obvious/more likely consequense. Most people aren't really thinking of that so much as they are thinking of getting away with therir crime. I'm sure that getting arrested or executed wasn't on the top of things Ted Bundy or even your average gang banger is thinking about. Otherwise prison would be a more effective deterent. They're caught up in the act itself, planning it, enjoying their percieved bennifits of it, be it money, revenge, satisfaction, etc. Think about things you've done and got away with. Wasn't the compulsion to commit the act stronger than your fear of the consequence. Not do that a few times, a feeling of invicibility sets in, and I feel that the longer it goes the less a person cares or even recognizes the chance of consequnce. If they lose that recongition, how can there be a deterent?

I agree with Fodders, it might be more effective if it was public, but as hungry as america is for blood, they don't actually want to feel it on their hands.

Scuba Steve said:

You're as stupid as you are ugly. Prison is hell regardless of who you are. People always try to support the death penalty with asinine reasons like "Prison is great, they have food and TV" forgetting rapes, beatings, loss of freedoms and mistreatment at the hands of guards to which the system all turns a blind eye. The death penalty is nothing more than people wanting sweet, sweet revenge. The death penalty isn't a dterrent for anything, we do it because it makes us FEEL good.

The only reason he was executed was because the United States is largely Christian and Christians fucking love killing people, LOVE it. "Thou Shalt Not Kill... except for murderers, pro abortion activists, and anyone else... maybe liberals... oh and Muslims, yeah those fuckin' Muslims! Anyone brown for that matter. You know forget this Commandment, I suppose it's not really that important."

Yeah, that's pretty funny, noticing the fact that Christianity came out of the Jewish Religion, which started in the East, IE, everyone was an arab. Christians got a little bleach thrown on em and now they're holier...

Psyonisis said:

Did you know that executing somebody costs way more than keeping them in prison for life? A single execution can cost the state millions of dollars.

Because a life completely deprived of anything meaningful is not worse than death? I'd rather die than be confined to a cell, cut off from the outside world, waiting for old age to kill me. Also, the death penalty isn't about justice; it's about revenge.

I don't see how the past history of humanity has anything to do with being comfortable with state-sanctioned murder.

I'm sure your crippling fear was finally relieved when Tookie was put down!

This is the stupidest argument I've ever seen for the death penalty. "I don't know about you, but I sure can't control my urge for human blood! Might as well make it productive!" I'm not even going to address this further.

Thanks for the intelligent retort, doofus.

1. Do you know the cost of one bullet? I'm sure a state can find all sorts of ways to cut down a sanctioned execution.

2. Look, if I was the government and I had nothing better to spend my money on, sure! I'd gladly torture and anguish every single person who committed a crime - but the government does have better things to spend taxes on than keeping people alive needlessly. It's not about better or worse fates than death, it's about justice - which is just another term for revenge, no matter how you look at it, death penalty or not.

3. Thanks for not even trying to understand what I said. Humans have never had a problem killing others - we can't ignore that ability, and taking out criminals who don't deserve to live is, in my opinion, the best way to curtail that part of our nature.

4. Once again, you fail at understanding completely. Congratulations! That's what criminals do - they prey on others and cause mass fear within their victims, unless they outright kill them (or both, like what Tookie did). I'm sure everyone who's lost someone they loved to a gang hit really appreciate your comments, though.

5. Oh, sorry for fessing up to reality. I've never killed a person, but I've sure been around death. My mother was killed by my uncle when I was a baby, and I've had to deal with that every day since it happened, so perhaps I have a better insight to things than you do. When you take the elevator down off your high horse, get back to me.

Relica Religia said:

5. Oh, sorry for fessing up to reality. I've never killed a person, but I've sure been around death. My mother was killed by my uncle when I was a baby, and I've had to deal with that every day since it happened, so perhaps I have a better insight to things than you do. When you take the elevator down off your high horse, get back to me.

Sorry to hear that, but his point is still valid, and that doesn't make your case stronger. The only reason for the Death Penalty is revenge... nothing more.

Don't seek revenge yourselves, beloved, but give place to God's wrath. For it is written, "Vengeance belongs to me; I will repay, says the Lord."

Scuba Steve said:

The only reason for the Death Penalty is revenge... nothing more.

I wholeheartedly agree. I also find it a bit absurd when people say someone "deserves to die". I mean, what the hell is that? How did you come to that conclusion? Is there some universal handbook for determinig if someone deserves to die?

I can see it now... Page 267 of the Does This Person Deserve to Die Handbook, column one: Crime: "Attempted to smuggle 400 grams of heroin"; column two: Deserves to die: "Yes".

myk said:

Their acceptance of the death penalty means they accept being killed. I have more respect for those who shun such practices, understanding what it means to accept transferring the ability to kill to the state or the law.

So are you saying that not employing the death penalty is more of a deterrent to violent crimes, namely murder, than actually using it? I find that difficult to believe.

It can actually increase the chances of murder, if you are gonna die if you get caught, you kill all witnesses, hostages or kidnap victims. What have you got to lose?

Fodders=pwnage

Relica Religia said:
2. Look, if I was the government and I had nothing better to spend my money on, sure! I'd gladly torture and anguish every single person who committed a crime - but the government does have better things to spend taxes on than keeping people alive needlessly. It's not about better or worse fates than death, it's about justice - which is just another term for revenge, no matter how you look at it, death penalty or not.

Justice is an attept to ameliorate, sort out, and balance conflicts between citizens or civilians. It's where civilized people meet to agrue grave differences of specific nature (cases.) Revenge (including death and torture) is what criminals, psychos and fascists call justice.

3. Thanks for not even trying to understand what I said. Humans have never had a problem killing others - we can't ignore that ability, and taking out criminals who don't deserve to live is, in my opinion, the best way to curtail that part of our nature.

You don't curtail what you practice, you perpetuate it.

If you drag justice down, it's not justce anymore; those who ask for that cannot be satisfied ever, and the effect is damaging to society. The pain you have suffered cannot and will never be repaired by justice, nor retaliation. That's yours to deal with, and your mother's not coming back either way.

I'm sure everyone who's lost someone they loved to a gang hit really appreciate your comments, though.

They well might; not everyone who's suffered from injustice asks for vengeance.

Scuba Steve said:
Incidentally, Minnesota has no death penalty and has a lower murder rate than most states WITH death penalties, with 2.2 per 100,000. Alabama with 4 million civilians has over twice the murder rate of Minnesota despite over 700 executions since re-enacting the death penalty. Alabama has a smalller population and its largest city Birmingham has a population smaller than the largest city in Minnesota, Minneapolis not forgetting its neighbor, Saint Paul minutes away comprising the second half of the large metropolitan area.

The death sentence goes hand in hand with violence and death, not as cause or effect, but as an effect of social violence that mirrors itself on the judiciary system. Sorting it out usually requires certain economic and social measures instead of death or torture. It's like in health care; yeah, you can amputate, medicate, or purge when disease or injury gets nasty, but it's far better to treat the harmful, septic or viral causes instead. That is, if you don't deal with things properly, you deal with them incorrectly (unless you actually want injustice and death for some reason.)

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wow a lot of replies O_o

yeah I personally am weakly opposed to the death penalty (i dont argue it insanely but I guess thats where my views are) although I can sympathize with people who are for it because I used to be as well. what annoys me is people going so far as to say he's heroic because of his alleged repentence (note the term "alleged"). so? as I said earlier, great, hes not hero, hes humbled by the sins he commited (assuming he really does repent, which I'm starting to doubt after seeing how he never apologized). childrens books are bullshit, the publishing companies push shit out through their metaphorical rectums regardless, as long as some celebrities name is stamped on the cover. I mean paul mcartney wrote a book called "High In The Clouds" gee I wonder what thats reffering to. its no wonder why this guy wrote about gangs; write what you know, especially if you're a celebrity! dammit pretty soon manson will come out with a book called "The Manson Girls and Mr. Polanski's Halloween Horror"

Job said:
So are you saying that not employing the death penalty is more of a deterrent to violent crimes, namely murder, than actually using it? I find that difficult to believe.

I sort of answered above; it's a social thing. The increased violence in society is reflected in the legal system by practicing extreme measures like death and violence against criminals. As long as a society keeps playing around that way with violence instead of managing it in a civilized form, it will remain or increase.

It's time to own.

Relica Religia said the following stuff!:


1. Do you know the cost of one bullet? I'm sure a state can find all sorts of ways to cut down a sanctioned execution.

Well, let's see here. 1 bullet requires 1 gun and 1 gun requires 1 man. To pay that man costs about $8-9 an hour, to purchase the firearm required to fire the bullet costs about $200 and then the bullet itself costs about $30 to get, as nobody sells single bullets, only boxes. Even making the bullet would cost more.

2. Look, if I was the government and I had nothing better to spend my money on, sure! I'd gladly torture and anguish every single person who committed a crime

Yeah, that makes a country look good. "You stole a candybar so we're going to beat your face." You see, the main point of a prison is to reform (however, we forgot that in America and just detain, though some prisons have a higher rate of reform than others, this is due to less violent criminals who didn't commit violent crimes and access to professional help). Also, justice isn't revenge, it's punishment. Revenge is personal, the law is a business, pure and simple.

They say "um, please don't murder people." and you do, you get punished. It's not fucking revenge.

3. Thanks for not even trying to understand what I said. Humans have never had a problem killing others - we can't ignore that ability, and taking out criminals who don't deserve to live is, in my opinion, the best way to curtail that part of our nature.

Wrong. This is one situation where clumping humanity into one for an opinion is not a good idea. See, the ability to kill another is not universal, it is individual. Some are willing to take a life, some are not. It all boils down to the person.

BBG said:

Revenge is personal, the law is a business, pure and simple.

The Punisher said:

It's not revenge. It's punishment.

sorry just had to say that :P even though that doesnt really represent my views. i'm kinda just playing devil's advocate.

BBG said:
the law is a business, pure and simple.

Nyu?

DJ_Haruko said:

I don't mean to let them live just so they can have an easy life in prison. People who would be normally be put to death can instead be put into more harsh conditions. Say one meal a day along with being in a 3'x3'x4' cell with the pictures of the people you killed plastered all over behind plexiglass walls.

What're proposing costs money. Most of these people are not even worth the price of the vial of shit that's pumped into them to stop their hearts.

Tookie Williams deserved a firing squad simply for the fact that a bullet is dirt-cheap.

Anyone who is guilty of such crimes deserves the same fate.

What about a city build as a prison with some 4 meter high wall patroled.
All murders, rapists, childmolesters, "drugkings" and others along that line get trown in and can live there, never harming normal people again.
Alot cheaper, every day comes a wagon full of cheap food, maybe some old clothes and sheets and donated books.
Everyone who tries to climb the wall gets shoot. Deaths are to be put into a hole that ends into an automated crematorium.
In a nutshell, no watching over the city, they can do what they want. The prisonwards would only need to make sure that nothing comes out and everything that goes in is checked.