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Betty Friedan dead at 85

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I forgot to mention this yesterday, but the woman who wrote "The Feminine Mystique" died.

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What’s that, “The Feminine Mystique”? An ideal woman? I suspect essentialism and I’m very suspectful with it…

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ducon said:

What’s that, “The Feminine Mystique”? An ideal woman? I suspect essentialism and I’m very suspectful with it…

Heh, actually the title of the book is derived from what women were told they should be like...so I guess in a way it was the "ideal woman"...just not the ideal woman that Friedan was espousing. Heh, espousing.

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pilottobombadier said:
Considering that feminism has caused more harm than good, all I can say is...whoop-dee-fucking-do.

Whatever, Mr. Neanderthal. Plus obviously it would be the wrong grave to shit on if you don't like "extreme feminism" for some reason.

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myk said:

Whatever, Mr. Neanderthal. Plus obviously it would be the wrong grave to shit on if you don't like "extreme feminism" for some reason.


Feminism effectively doubled the workforce, thus giving companies the reason they needed to effectively halve wages. Who's the neanderthal now, putz?

And it IS the right grave to shit on in that respect - which I wasn't, actually - because it is what inspired the uber-psychos to go gonzo.

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pilottobombadier said:
Feminism effectively doubled the workforce, thus giving companies the reason they needed to effectively halve wages.

Mr. Neanderthal, I'm quite sure you speak with thorough knowledge of econometrics, but I've heard women have been working from long before twentieth-century feminism, and for the most part this has affected to a degree women's choices in the labor field, but hasn't altered the type of work they do too much. Additionally with this century numerous job opportunities which are woman-friendly have come to be, especially in businesses with increased needs for administrative and management bodies. Factors like increased productivity through advanced technology have much more impact on workforce size implications than any form of feminism could ever have.

Finally if couples both work, they both have income, and if both didn't there'd be little or nothing that could balance out loss of general income to any previous levels that may have been higher for whatever reason, much less "gain" anything from arranging society so that women in particular have less labor choices.

because it is what inspired the uber-psychos to go gonzo.

That's how you get personal with people who spoke of things determined mostly by social factors they have a lesser influence over? If anything she was spokesperson for changes to come, which are best brought about in the proper circumstances once it's evident they are being realized.

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pilottobombadier said:

Feminism effectively doubled the workforce, thus giving companies the reason they needed to effectively halve wages. Who's the neanderthal now, putz?

WTF, man. Do you think that women should all just stay home and do nothing with their lives? Why should men be the only ones able to ever do anything important? I don't think it actualy doubled the workforce either, considering a lot of women were working even before the 60s (most women in their early 20s and most women older than 40 I'd say...they usualy quit work to raise their children).

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Danarchy said:

WTF, man. Do you think that women should all just stay home and do nothing with their lives?


Wtf man. Ya know man? Pull your head out of your ass. I don't have a problem with women working, I have a problem with individuals using that as an excuse to cut our wages. That's insight, not misogyny.

And feminism has created more imbalance than good, especially here in Canada.

And if I was intent on "getting even" with someone, I wouldn't flame them on a message board. I would genuinely go and take a huge fucking dump on her grave if I were so intent on doing so.

You guys need to take a class in reality.

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Of all forums to host a discussion of Betty Friedan and modern feminism, Doomworld is pretty much the last one I expected

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pilottobombadier said:
I don't have a problem with women working, I have a problem with individuals using that as an excuse to cut our wages.

Okay, so in Canada managers and CEOs periodically inform workers by saying, "uh, look kid, we're reducing your salary by 10% this month because there's been an increase in female workers lately."?

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Danarchy said:

WTF, man. Do you think that women should all just stay home and do nothing with their lives? Why should men be the only ones able to ever do anything important?

So, staying at home and raising a family isn't important? It's not that I'm disagreeing with what you're saying, only that you poorly worded it. ; )

On another note, I don't see how I make less because other people have jobs... unless we're talking about other people in other coutries that have jobs that were outsourced... Go women! :D

EDIT: This thread has potential.

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JacKThERiPPeR said:

If I were you, I would rip apart this thread in Hell.

Surgeon General's Warning: Back seat modding is detrimental to your health and may lead to a stay in Losers.

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JacKThERiPPeR said:

Anyways, feminists are the same than sexists.


That depends...

Feminism can mean (and usually does mean) the idea that there is a considerable bias towards women ingrained in our culture and steps has to be taken to remove this bias where it is unfair.

This position is not all that controversial, but once we get down to specifics disagreement begins.

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pilottobombadier said:

Wtf man. Ya know man? Pull your head out of your ass. I don't have a problem with women working, I have a problem with individuals using that as an excuse to cut our wages. That's insight, not misogyny.

I really don't see how it decreases wages at all. I mean, for every women who gets a job that's an additional consumer as well thus an increased chance to sell stuff thus more profit thus the ability to pay more. It's as shaky as the arguments of people who are against immigration.

And yes, non-working women buy stuff with their husband's money but when you have two working people, that's an even larger pool of funds right there.

And feminism has created more imbalance than good, especially here in Canada.

Aside from this percieved problem with falling wages, what other problems have occured because of feminism? Maybe things are different in Canada, but down here in the states I haven't seen any problems arise that can be directly attributed to the feminist movement. The only problem I see is that women still don't have nearly as much power as men do.

Just as an aside, I find if interesting that if someone's argument is falling apart, the first thing they do is tell me to pull my head out of my ass, whatever that means. You can tell someone is losing an argument when they start with the personal insults. :P

Mr. Angel With the Scabbed Wings said:

So, staying at home and raising a family isn't important? It's not that I'm disagreeing with what you're saying, only that you poorly worded it. ; )

I don't see how I worded that badly, but I agree with you. But the issue here is choice. It's important that women can chose to work or chose to be a mother. Personally, I think it's a bit of a travisty that so many mothers choose a career over their children, but that's more a symptom of assholeism than feminism. There are ways to have both a career and well-raised children, but most choose to ignore such a path for being too bohemian or something, and society pressures everyone to work themselves to death.

The Death of Jack the Ripper said:

Anyways, feminists are the same than sexists.

Not true. For instance, I consider myself a feminist becasue I believe there should be equality between the sexes (which there isn't in this country).

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Danarchy said:

Mr Angel with the Scabbed Wings

In my own defense, I only enjoy Portrait through maybe, maybe Mechanical Animals. For the lyrics anyway. ; )

Danarchy said:

I don't see how I worded that badly, but I agree with you. But the issue here is choice. It's important that women can chose to work or chose to be a mother. Personally, I think it's a bit of a travisty that so many mothers choose a career over their children, but that's more a symptom of assholeism than feminism. There are ways to have both a career and well-raised children, but most choose to ignore such a path for being too bohemian or something, and society pressures everyone to work themselves to death.

Wasn't that bad, just seemed kind of funny. :D I agree, I would say that this is a symptom of many things, but it's situational, divorce, greed, feminism (by this I only mean that empowerment is sometimes overkill, and the raising of children with fall to the wayside. I mean this regarding a marriage or partnership. Single mothers are, well forced to bust their asses TO support their children... it's all circumstantial). I wish I lived in Europe, where it seems paid vacations are a hell of a lot longer, and people actually know how to relax... Back to the issue of what ends up becoming neglect, Mother and Father TV are always there to raise the children ; P

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Danarchy said:

But the issue here is choice. It's important that women can chose to work or chose to be a mother.

Unless her partner pulls in say ~80k+ alone (depending on where one lives) or if she's a single mother, there really isn't a choice.

Not true. For instance, I consider myself a feminist becasue I believe there should be equality between the sexes (which there isn't in this country).

And there never will be. I really don't know why you'd call yourself a feminist. Considering there are many situations where the male will get the shaft as opposed to a women. Your only issue seems to be the lack of true wage parity. I would agree with you on that issue as well.

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insertwackynamehere said:

First the Holocaust was actually paid for by Jews and now Feminism turns out to be hurting society? Pilotto is on a role!

and what does the holocaust have to do with anything?

Linguica said:

Of all forums to host a discussion of Betty Friedan and modern feminism, Doomworld is pretty much the last one I expected

for being unexpected, it's turning out pretty much as expected.

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insertwackynamehere said:

First the Holocaust was actually paid for by Jews and now Feminism turns out to be hurting society? Pilotto is on a role!


Hey spin-doctor, you might wanna pull that dreidel out of your ass before you go out of control and hurt yourself.

Any kind of chauvanism hurts society. Here in Canada, because we're so politically correct, we side with the "lesser" parties so we don't get sued. That's why there's no equality.

Perfect example is the education system. A teacher here in Ont. (female) was fucking one of her students (he had to 13), and she was suspended with pay; slap on the wrist. Male teacher (a few years back) was fired and up on criminal charges, and at around the same time, another female teacher was caught doing the same...and of course, she was merely suspended with pay.

The only thing in our legal system that's fair, ironically, is divorce, where all the assets are split right down the middle.

And I'd bet my left nut it's very similar in any other liberalised nation.

This is not something some of you the liberal individuals (don't worry, I have a choicer word for you, but I'll be nice) are going to change my mind, and mud-slinging me for giving you some insight into the real world is only going to make me lose more of what little respect remaining I have for you; Danarchy excluded.

Unfortunately, some of you - and i'm guilty of this, too - live in your own world within your national borders and either don't fully know what's going on or don't care (I'm in the "I know but don't give a fuck" category").

The only liberalised nation that I know of that is genuinely fair and equal - as long as you speak their language, toe their line, and don't shave your armpits, pubic or ass hair - which is gross, but I can respect that because it's their nation - is France.

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pilottobombadier said:
Any kind of chauvanism hurts society. Here in Canada, because we're so politically correct, we side with the "lesser" parties so we don't get sued. That's why there's no equality.

Props. It's good to see they keep the rubbish isolated over there.

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Well, even if your anger against political correctness running amuck in Canada has a valid point I still think you are insulting Betty Friedan for something that is not strictly her fault.

What she wrote was basically a rebellion against the notion that women should have their entire identity confined to the domestic sphere. A very valid point at the time when she wrote The Feminine Mystique.

Nowadays it might seem redundant in most of the western world, but it wasn't so back in the 50's and early 60's.

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Quast said:

Unless her partner pulls in say ~80k+ alone (depending on where one lives) or if she's a single mother, there really isn't a choice.

Well I guess 'option' is a better way of saying it than choice. Yeah, if you have no other real source of income you're pretty fucked unless you start working. But still, back in the old days if a women was forced into that kind of situation she'd either have to rely on her family, choose from a limited selection of jobs (nurse, secretary, stewardess), or starve to death. Now at least they can (theoreticaly) choose whatever career they wish.

And there never will be. I really don't know why you'd call yourself a feminist. Considering there are many situations where the male will get the shaft as opposed to a women. Your only issue seems to be the lack of true wage parity. I would agree with you on that issue as well.

Yes, I agree with that, but I also believe the Equal Rights Ammendment should finaly be passed (according to US law, women really don't actualy have as much rights as men), and I believe women are still coerced into social roles by the media and society in general.

pilottobombadier said:

Hey spin-doctor, you might wanna pull that dreidel out of your ass before you go out of control and hurt yourself.

Man, you have some kind of ass fetish, don't you?

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