Genetic Disaster Released

You do need the model pack, otherwise there are no definitions files (.ded files ).

without this files Risen3D don't work properly.

In that case I recommend you ask who ever is in charge of building the Risen3D packages for distrib to include them in the main download. A "complete" installation package should include everything I need to get started with Risen3D.

Agreed. That was 15 minutes of utterly pointless frustration. With such broken distributions Risen3D will never come out of the obscurity it's in at the moment. You can't expect every inexperienced user to understand such things if even the more experienced people here have problems.

I don't care playing with monster models so logically I never downloaded the stuff I thought I don't need.

I installed the pack but all the checkboxes are greyed out to enable them... whatever.

Doesn't that launcher suck? :(

Doesn't risen3d support command lines? If it do, I suggest sitters include a commandline batch file to load his mods.

If you go to the risen3d downloads page,

you see under Risen3d, what you need.

That there are 4 items, It is logical you download all the 4 and not one.

But maybe my logical is not yours.

Greetings.

kristus said:

Doesn't risen3d support command lines? If it do, I suggest sitters include a commandline batch file to load his mods.

Yes I can start with an batch file but,

I did that ones for doomsday, also an lot of people that did not understand that, and gives an lot of shit.

greetings.

DaniJ said:

In that case I recommend you ask who ever is in charge of building the Risen3D packages for distrib to include them in the main download. A "complete" installation package should include everything I need to get started with Risen3D.

What I mean there is an service release that is what you need.

Go to the Risen3D site and Read !!

Greetings

sitters said:

If you go to the risen3d downloads page,

you see under Risen3d, what you need.

That there are 4 items, It is logical you download all the 4 and not one.

But maybe my logical is not yours.

Greetings.

Why should it be 'logical' to get 4 items? Logic should dictate that they are split up because they are *not* all needed, don't you think? If all 4 are truly required then they should be packaged as one.

And please calm down a little. Your package doesn't contain any help whatsoever how to start your level. It's just a plain installer that dumps all the data somewhere and leaves the user alone with Risen3D's launcher - and as you have noticed many here had problems using it. And please note that these are all experienced users, not idiots.

Graf Zahl said:

And please note that these are all experienced users, not idiots.

Not from Risen3D !

And I don't call anybody idiots, that are your words.

Greetings.

sitters said:

Not from Risen3D !

And I don't call anybody idiots, that are your words.

Greetings.

I haven't called anyone an idiot. I have said that they are *not* idiots and still had problems. So please don't act like they are merely too stupid to get it right. If 4 or 5 experienced users are having problems getting Risen3D to work I'd blame the install package not the people.

Please note english is not Wim's (Sitter's) first language.

Mine neither!

Mine neither.

I stop talking because this is leading to nowhere.

I see you all back by the release of StrikeBack.


Greetings.

The launcher is working fine for me, but I agree its difficult to get used to.
When I first installed R3d that launcher was pissing me off too, but ive gotten used to it somewhat.

Sitters nobody is too stupid to get that fraggin thing working, most of the people here know a hell of alot more about sourceports than I ever will know.

English isn't my first language either :)

dutch devil said:

The launcher is working fine for me, but I agree its difficult to get used to.
When I first installed R3d that launcher was pissing me off too, but ive gotten used to it somewhat.

Sitters nobody is too stupid to get that fraggin thing working, most of the people here know a hell of alot more about sourceports than I ever will know.

English isn't my first language either :)

I know but they still are giving comments to an level, with an not properly installed engine, without models.

And play an level that needs models, to play, and needs an properly installed engine.

And judge the level with half working stuff.

That is stupid !! >:(

Greetings

Sorry to everyone else here but this is going to be a LONG post. It is aimed entirely at the Risen3D dev team in an attempt to help them improve their distribution methods and to help them understand why we are having such difficulty in installing Risen3D 2.0 - in order to play Genetic Disaster.

As such, feel free to completely ignore this post if it does not apply to you.

sitters - Please read this post fully and take time to consider what I'm saying. I feel I'm in pretty much the same situation as other users with regard to Risen3D 2.0 (though I'm not claiming I speak for everyone here) but I'll try to explain why we are experiencing problems running Genetic Disaster.

I consider myself an experienced user and have used ALL the various DOOM source ports and most are permanently installed on my HD. Since I'm so closely involved with Doomsday (developer and long term user) and considering Risen3D is based on it - I would imagine I'm in a more advantaged position than most when it comes to installing Risen3D 2.0

I would have mailed this directly to Graham but I have not yet found anyway to contact him directly.

From this point on I will refer to Genetic Disaster as "GD".

Here follows a step-by-step transcription of my attempt to play GD and my first experiences with Risen3D 2.0 In an attempt to make this more useful to the dev team I'm describing the whole sequence of events, including my own thoughts. In places I will deliberately labor points and be contrived:
---

The first I heard of Risen3D 2.0 was in this very thread where I was informed that Genetic Disaster had been released (and required the new Risen3D 2.0).
So off I go to the Risen3D home page to download the new goodies. When I get there I'm presented with three downloads:

* Risen3D 2.0 (- full instalation)
* Risen3D latest service release
* Genetic Disaster

After reading the annoucement I'm told

"Here is what you will need ." (the files listed above).

Here we see the first potential problem (which I encountered latter on as you will read). Im told:

"Risen3D latest service release - updated model pack definitions if you don't want to download these packs again."

I think to myself - "I don't want the modelpack but I'm told to download that file?".

Although at the time I thought it strange that an apparently "full instalation" required me to download a service release, I dutifully download all three (though I would imagine the majority of people wouldn't).

I've now got the files so I start instalation.

Logic dictates that I begin with the main executable so I start up r3dv2.0-setup.exe and install it where it asks me to.

Next up I installed the "service release" r3dv2.0-sr1.exe thinking to myself - "Better install this too I guess? Its a service pack after all".

Next I install GD - GeneticD.exe.

OK. Done. I'm now back at my desktop with no idea how to run Risen3D. Windows XP didn't even inform me I had a new application installed... So I go looking for it in the Start menu - "Ah ha! there it is". I click on Risen3D.

I'm now confronted with a dialog asking me to find my IWADs, so I do just that - directing Risen3D to each of my DOOM IWADS in turn.

Now a launcher appears. I can see all my DOOM games but no sign of GD. I look at all the buttons and figure the first place to look is Game folders - no signs of GD, so I try something called Udir folders - "Ah ha! there it is", so I click on GD.

Next I see GeneticD.wad appear in a box called "GAME FILES". At which point I think "Now I press Launch Pwad?" - so I do.

To my surprise I'm now told:

"The geneticd.wad contains no levels".

Thinking this was a bit strange I clicked back to the "Base Games" section , selected DOOMII and pressed the same button (this time called) "Launch Iwad":

"The doom2.wad contains no levels".

As you would imagine that really stunned me. I figure - "Maybe the launcher needs to be restarted?" - so I do just that.

Risen3D Launcher starts up again but this time I notice that it has automatically selected DOOM for me and there is a list of maps in the far right window. "Ah ha! Now we're getting somewhere" I say to myself. So remembering how I found GD before the restart I navigate back there and click the "Launch Pwad" button. After a brief pause while building the GL NODES I'm now relieved to see Risen3D begin to start up.

After a short time I'm dropped directly into the level, I can see my pistol and the level title comes up - "Great, I'm there" I think. So I open the door infront of me and run straight into an invisible barrier. Next I walk along the edge of the platform I'm on but I begin to quickly notice something isn't right.

For starters, I seem to be getting stuck on invisible barriers and the level looks completely empty. I think to myself "This is a sitters level. Wheres all the models?" so decide something has gone wrong in the install so I quit Risen3D and I'm back to my desktop.

OK. Back to the Risen3D homepage I go. I re-read everything on the page but this time taking more time to consider the wording. I read the bit about the "service pack" again:

"updated model pack definitions if you don't want to download these packs again."

I think to myself - "Ah so its NOT a service release for Risen3D itself, its an update to the modelpack". Knowing that sitters uses models in all his mods I decide to try installing the modelpack... Download, Install. Next I install the "service pack" again, Done.

So I now startup Risen3D via the Start menu. Once again I'm confronted with the "point Risen3D to your IWADS" dialog. So AGAIN, I go through the process of finding my IWADs and AGAIN have to restart Risen3D Launcher for the changes to take effect.

Finally I click the "Launch Pwad" button and Risen3D starts up. After a short while I'm back in the level and this time I can see Chilvence's pistol HUD model. I open the door in front of me and the first thing I notice is that the invisible barrier I got stuck on in my first attempt to play GD, has been replaced with a "real", visible barrier.

I now get a feeling of relief as I can FINALLY try Genetic Disaster the way it was meant to be played - but by now I already have a particularly bad taste in my mouth.
---

I hope the dev team finds the above useful. These kind of usability reports are a rare thing in the free software universe.

Please take the time to consider that if I had so many problems trying to play this PWAD (a Doomsday developer who also maintains the jDRP (jDoom's equivalent to the Risen3D modelpack)) - just how many problems a typical end user will have when trying to play Genetic Disaster in the brand new Risen3D 2.0

I took Dani's advice and downloaded the enormous model packs and tried that. It's a decent level now that the models are there... a bit stale on the gameplay, just find the switch and hit it. Why is it necessary to download a bloated set of uncessesary models when the ones I need should be included directly with the map?

My experience was similar to DaniJ's. Except that I stopped about half way through - after getting the map running but with all the missing stuff as described. When (from this thread) I realised I needed to DL the entire model pack - on a day when my erratic internet connection was playing up, I gave up and made a mental note to maybe try again at some point in the future.

Shame, I do like Risen3D - I have used the previous version quite a lot - and the map itself looks interesting too. But what to download wasn't clear, the way to get it up and running wasn't apparent either and it seems wrong that I have to download that many megabytes of stuff (once you discover that is what's required - model packs are usually optional) just to enable what is needed for a single level.

If a distribution has managed to stump, or at least make the installation unnecessarily complex for the majority of competent users who have tried, clearly something is wrong. In turn, it means the port and the map are not getting the play time that presumably the authors of both want.

OK, off course I evaluate all the criticize from your people.

And take all the positive critic to improve new releases for risen3D and levels, and evaluate what is going wrong.

But what I want to say, we are also on your site, we are also trying to give people fun playing maps, that looks nice.

So it is not fair to drag it in the mud. When there is something wrong.
That is pissing me off, and normal conversation is then lost.

I thanks people that's giving positive critic that we can use to improve things.

Greetings.

OK, I re-downloaded everything and tried again. This time, armed with knowledge from this thread, installation was easy and went ahead without a hitch. I dropped my IWADs into what I assumed was the correct folder and they were found as soon as I started the launcher. In other words, now that I know how to do it, installation was a problem-free breeze.

I still feel that information on how to set stuff up was woefully inadequate, I don't see why I had to download 3 different files when one of them was called a "full installation" and having to play with the monster models (although I agree they work well with the level) means a bigger download and forces me to play with them whether I like it or not.

IMO, there should be a download that is genuinely complete and one without models. They should be clearly labelled as such and there should be clear, easy to find instructions for each on how to install. In fact, there should probably be a absolutely full install - with models and hi-res textures - too.

Also, surely the ded files required to enable the models in the level are just a few KB. They should be distributed with the level with an option to install them with the level. Why an option? To prevent people over writing any ded files they may already have and not want to over-write.

So, how about the level? Well, with Risen running properly, the level looked great. It was hard to believe I was playing Doom at times but the old weapons and monsters were there giving me those timeless Doom battles. I often couldn't tell where models stopped and architechture started. It was very impressive in places. My favourite area, I think, was the place with the imps in tanks teleporting into the main play area. It looked great and was quite a creepy place in that strange futuristic, WTF are the evil scientists doing now kind of way.

However, the map didn't play-out that well IMO. There was a lot of "where the feck is the switch I need" and, after finding it, a lot of "what the feck did that switch do". Basic errors that have been annoying and universally condemned gameplay features from day 1.

The "false walls" were also annoying. All that prettiness and you couldn't put a proper see through grating on a vent? And how come both I and the monsters can just walk through solid steel? They should have been breakable or something.

There was also too much of the level just "magically" altering or being enabled because I'd been into a room. Why was it that an area in the air-vents, or a door (or wherever) had suddenly started working just because I'd visited another room? I know that's a staple of Doom level logic, but it felt very false a lot of the time. What's more, there was very little in the way of clues that something had happened so I would find myself backtracking "just in case" something had changed. Sometimes it had, sometimes it hadn't.

I hate stealth monsters and I reserve a particular hatred for stealth archviles.

Also, unmarked key doors have been a pet hate of mine since 1994. It's annoying to the player and has always struck me as lazy mapping.

A new sky texture would have been nice. With so much else being changed the old one kind of stuck out. Or was I supposed to use the hi-res pack one?

I found health a bit tight for a while. There was probably enough, but I didn't find it in a good order. Either bad placement or bad route choice by me - not sure which.

I also noticed a few oddities. Near the start, there are two windows looking out onto the platform area. You can get into these by going behind them in the tunnel and climbing some steps. However, the first few times I tried, there was a wall blocking me. Then one time it had magically gone. Intentional or a bug? It seemed buggy anyway.

An engine one - monsters walking along slopes would walk with their bodies at 45 degrees to the ground. It looked very odd and very gravity defying - but not in a good way.

Bottom line - an impressive Doom engine with features that are being used very well by a showcase level. However, take away the prettiness of the engine and models and it's just an OK level to play, with some of the basic flaws that have brought down many a potentially good map to being just an OK one. In saying all that, I thought it stood up well in comparison with newer (different game) engines and levels and I'd probably far rather play this over and over than force myself to replay some of the much newer games available.

Heh... I just noticed the unintended humour in this thread's title.

...is Sitter a happy dad now?

sitters said:

One thing I don't understand there is an new sky texture.
maybe hires textures was not enabled in the launcher.

You are quite correct. Works now and looks much better as a result. Thanks.

What everyone skims over is that this level (and R3D) is not a copy of anything else. Hence the issues raised are a combination of both port docs and user ASSumptions.

Doesn't matter what source ports you know, ASSuming is what leads to problems. IOW, don't be so hostile and give it some slack. Lots of stuff is difficult the first time or poorly documented. Part of the evolution of any port.

The launcher, unclear installation docs and how to play are something that I've tried to convey - so actually I'm glad that this came up. That was the opposite problem expressed here, R3D users are too comfortable with the features :)

The problem is actually no different here for any other port. JDOOM is no cakewalk either in docs or launcher. Nor will any port that starts having all the various modes as "options" for compatibility. Only with constant use does it start to be "easy".

IOW options are part of the problem. The more options, the more there is to learn. That's the nature of any program that expands the DOOM envelope, yet still supports sprites and older levels.

The first time you use use port X, it's NOT obvious how to enable features or how to edit either. ZDOOM, for example, is extremely difficult to edit for and very arcane in finding out the various settings. Even if you read the wiki, it's all greek (or latin) to a beginner.

People that say it's "easy", forget the years and years of learning involved. Same thing for JDOOM. The number of people who have mastered DED files you can count on 1 hand to this day.

Heck the "not easy" even applies to DOOM for god's sake if you're a newcomer.

Sitters is actually in rarefied territory. Any port that supports models would be thrilled to have someone with that much talent. Look at the big picture - look what you can DO!

As should be obvious by now, the earlier comments were made mostly because of faulty installation, docs and thus had no idea on how to run the level(and some were just desperate for attention).

The packaging is fine - it should be various parts. You don't want all that in 1 download otherwise it's HUGE. This is no different then JDOOM. Try to run models in JDOOM without loading the models :)

Nice Sitters! No matter some of the shortcommings in game play with this latest level (See Enjay's post), I still really enjoy your work. I haven't made it through the whole map because I got too invloved replaying your old releases optimized for R3D.

For those of you out there that played and liked (or even sort of liked) Chiller Castle, Hell on Egypt, etc... get the R3D optimized versions and play them again. There are some amazing new details in them that I just loved. The floating wraith-like guy in Chiller Castle was awesome.

I must admit though, these levels kick me hard as I'm not a great Doomer. I try not to DQD through levels, but I find myself employing a few cheats here and there to survive very long in a Sitter's map.

A simple hint for R3D: If you downloaded all the model and weapons replacement packs keep them around. I kept them after the last version release of R3D, so this time around all I had to due was download "full installation" and the service pack and I was ready to go. Also, I found during the last installation to load R3D to your root c:/ directory or else paths would get screwed up and R3D wouldn't work quite right. It may have changed for this release, but I wouldn't try loading to a subdirectory.

OldMan said:

For those of you out there that played and liked (or even sort of liked) Chiller Castle, Hell on Egypt, etc... get the R3D optimized versions and play them again. There are some amazing new details in them that I just loved. The floating wraith-like guy in Chiller Castle was awesome.

I've just spent a very enjoyable hour or more playing through them all. It's stunning stuff visually. What sitters is producing with his total use of models, I simply can't imagine doing and it requires a skill-set I simply don't have (and to be fair, I'm not desperately inclined to get ATM either). I think the Egyptian map (I always like Egyptian stuff) and the Castle look especially good, and the hell level with all those skeltons and crucified guys... but none of the levels are in any way ugly and singling any of them out does the others a disservice. It's also really nice to see unusual or uncommon texture sources (eg UT) being used instead of the endless variations of Quake textures.

I would, however, say that many of the comments re gameplay that I made about Genetic Disaster apply to the other maps too. Mainly that there are far too many difficult to find or obscure switches and too often what the switches do is not apparent. Getting lost in these maps may be a pretty experience, but it's still frustrating. Other things too - like difficult to spot, inescapable traps, being dumped into some very hard fights with little ammo or inadequate weapons, a few mapping glitches... yadda yadda. Once sitters gets a handle on those kind of issues, his maps will be great to play as well as to look at.

deep said:

The problem is actually no different here for any other port. JDOOM is no cakewalk either in docs or launcher. Nor will any port that starts having all the various modes as "options" for compatibility. Only with constant use does it start to be "easy".

...

The first time you use use port X, it's NOT obvious how to enable features or how to edit either. ZDOOM, for example, is extremely difficult to edit for and very arcane in finding out the various settings. Even if you read the wiki, it's all greek (or latin) to a beginner.

Total crap, and pointless. The argument here isn't about editing wads, it's about running and setting up the mod. JDoom and Risen3D (risen especially) is a total pain in the ass to get running... a dozen sub folders each with stuff like DEV, SNDS, LAUNCHR, TEX... and so on. Every other port requires at MOST just TWO files, the wad (one if the port supports embeded deh). I can drag a SINGLE wad on zdoom, legacy or Eternity and it will run instantly, no launcher, no subfolders, no additional modelpacks or sky packs.

If I were not such a dedicated Doomer, and a much more casual gamer, I would have given up on sitters level in about 1 minute... instead of re-reading the thread, learning about the model pack needed and all the other mumbo jumbo. I'm no programmer, but why can't all of these new features be crammed into ONE single file? Maybe the exe should be capable of reading zip files if it must be split up... because as it stands, running mods for JDoom and Risen 3D is a MAJOR pain... I have to isntall a fresh copy with the doom2 exe and install a ton of files that should be unecessary for the mod (like the model packs, which begin to eat up a load of HD space for stuff I don't care about). Risen and JDoom need to make loading mods easier, and not punish the player who tries to install them.

Scuba Steve said:

Risen and JDoom need to make loading mods easier, and not punish the player who tries to install them.

You know, some people call this 'modern sophisticated data organization'.

Which, of course, is utter bullshit. But I fear you won't reach the people that need to be reached. They believe that their convoluted way of organizing data is actually great!

But why are most Doomsday/Risen3D projects distributed as bloated installers then to ensure that the shitload of files are copied properly? The only guess I can make is that in reality the system isn't intuitive enough for people that aren't interested in such technicalities.

BTW, Doomsday and its child Risen3D are the only ports that show these problems. Even Vavoom which is far from perfect allows distribution in a way that is clean and allows to keep all data grouped together rather than spreading it out across a needlessly large directory tree (no matter whether inside or outside some container file format.)

Consequently they are the only ports with which I ever had problems like this. Engine problems nonwithstanding I was able to start each and every mod for each and every other port without any hassle - and without any crappy launcher! In my opinion a launcher should be a tool of convenience to make it easier to select and start the mods you want, not something that is needed because without it it is impossible to do that.

Doomsday's entire interface appears like it was designed by technocrats. Unfortunately Risen3D seems to push this approach even further. Just reading the docs that explain how to do 3D floors and slopes made me scratch my head in disbelief. These have to be the most harebrained methods to do this stuff!