ZDaemon or Skulltag?

Well I was playing Skulltag today--I mean trying to. The Oldschool mode really isn't too good. The NORMAL LIFT SIDE PLASMA GRAB DOESN'T WORK on map01. Hallway spawn one didn't seem to work. In any case, the plasma grab is screwed--and that's an integral part of map01 (oldschool or otherwise). I was talking to the project leader in the IRC chat, and he said he wasn't interested in correcting that problem. In fact, he said he wanted to drop oldschool mode altogether. So not only is zdaemon the place to find map01 competition--but you can't even play a real map01 game on Skulltag.

And the other thing is that there isn't much of a selection of dedicated skulltag servers.

Draxamus said:

I was talking to the project leader in the IRC chat, and he said he wasn't interested in correcting that problem. In fact, he said he wanted to drop oldschool mode altogether.

I have a follow-up to that:

http://www.skulltag.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3882

Draxamus said:

Well I was playing Skulltag today--I mean trying to. The Oldschool mode really isn't too good. The NORMAL LIFT SIDE PLASMA GRAB DOESN'T WORK on map01. Hallway spawn one didn't seem to work. In any case, the plasma grab is screwed--and that's an integral part of map01 (oldschool or otherwise). I was talking to the project leader in the IRC chat, and he said he wasn't interested in correcting that problem. In fact, he said he wanted to drop oldschool mode altogether. So not only is zdaemon the place to find map01 competition--but you can't even play a real map01 game on Skulltag.

You can't really blame Carn. He's not interested in oldschool mode. Period. He wants to work on new content, which is perfectly fine by me, as he clearly has the interest and motivation to support and improve the origional content.

Besdies, you're not completely out of luck. Chocolate Doom is about as close as you can get to vanilla doom, and it's being actively worked on, and it's also going to include multiplayer. And it's not not a hack or approximation, it's going to be AS CLOSE AS YOU CAN GET without using doom2.exe itself.

Still, I kinda wished that there was a replacement for ZDaemon, the happy median between old and new, without the complete faggotry of the current administration and communtiy. I doubt that Fraggle would add CTF to Chocolate Doom, so people like me who want a 'happy median' between old and new are still left in the dark.

O

CTF is an element of newschool. They should look to Skulltag for that.

Carnevil said:
CTF is an element of newschool. They should look to Skulltag for that.

I'm an old school type person and I find CTF likeable, though personally I'd play it on a classic engine, with classic physics. If someone started a PrBoom, Eternity or Chocolate Doom MultiPlayer variant that adds CTF I'd quite use it. The first CTF engine, CTFDoom, was based on DOSDoom.

With ZDaemon, there's always this Wikipedia nugget where a staff member is trying to even censor the history around the port's controversy. It's all silliness and another reason I don't play online anymore. Instead I create unfun levels that nobody will ever play.

Afterglow said:
With ZDaemon, there's always this Wikipedia nugget where a staff member is trying to even censor the history around the port's controversy.

I don't know too much about the specifics of the trojan myself, but another controversy not mentioned there is that they created a contest to make a wad for the shareware, and provide such a wad with their "starter" package, which is strictly against the DOOM user license (which clearly states that wads may not be used with demo versions of the DOOM software.)

Also the part of the article about the ZDaemon containing more assholes than "other onlune communities" is retarded. I'm sure lots of games have rotten communities, and the main bad thing about ZDaemon is not that is has bad people playing it or using it, but the corporate and pushy type of behavior displayed by some people around its development. At least that's the core issue; whether it reflects on the community around it to some extent is another matter.

Skull tag is not only more fun and interesting than Zdameon, but in my opinion more fun and varied than most other FPSes than Quake 3

and its practically free. What a wonderful world

I like both ports - ZDaemon for fast, furious and often competitive CTF and FFA action, and Skulltag for a rich variety of maps and game modes (in the form of FNF).

Which is the best of both worlds in my view.

myk said:

Also the part of the article about the ZDaemon containing more assholes than "other onlune communities" is retarded. I'm sure lots of games have rotten communities, and the main bad thing about ZDaemon is not that is has bad people playing it or using it, but the corporate and pushy type of behavior displayed by some people around its development. At least that's the core issue; whether it reflects on the community around it to some extent is another matter.

I don't know about the article, but my own personal reason for thinking the community is full of assholes is because they're complacient. They either are:

1. Ignorant, in that they don't know or care about the controversey as long as they can get their fix.
2. Unethical, they know the positions that their staff take and they agree with them.
3. Whipped, they know the positions that their staff take and instead of getting angry or complaining, they shrug it off and keep playing, because they don't want to get in trouble.

Myself and many other people in the community has given up noteriety or face irrelivancy in the ZDaemon community because we were whisleblowers. So you can see where I'm a little bit peeved at the userbase of ZDaemon, a lot less so at the third group than the other two, but it's still discouraging. There needs to be change, and as long as people are complacient and idle, nothing will change.

AlexMax said:
Myself and many other people in the community has given up noteriety or face irrelivancy in the ZDaemon community because we were whisleblowers. So you can see where I'm a little bit peeved at the userbase of ZDaemon, a lot less so at the third group than the other two, but it's still discouraging. There needs to be change, and as long as people are complacient and idle, nothing will change.

I understand being annoyed; as for group 1 it is still just players playing, and not everybody gets deep enough into things to care about or understand some issues. Generally people that care more have been more in touch with the development through projects and skills they have that led them there. Changes can't be forced onto something that has been a certain way since its inception or even before (with CSDoom), though some slight modifications have occurred in different directions (some good, some pretty bad) they aren't very predictable to anybody. I had proposed more classic settings long ago, and they were eventually added quite a while after I stopped paying attention to ZDaemon (eventually I've paid more attention to it lately because of the added features and because some good players play it regularly). If anything a truly clean alternative should only be possible with another project. I don't really think the ZDaemon team can fully get much better, even if they kick some people out (some seem quite skilled or rather decent, others are lame or just in there in an almost useless social way). The problem is in the software and its makeup (both license and development lines) as well.

at the moment, ZDaemon is the ONLY port, that you can maintain a competitive skill level with, and right now it's pretty much the only port that allows a competitive set of playing rules and resources.

As far is I'm concerned, skulltag is the only port i will play on. There are a few reasons for this.

1.Im banned from ZD, I don't even know why, I have only played a few times on it, something about a ip range ban on somebody else, and the ZD staff hasn't fixed it and its been a month.

2.The new weapons and runes in skulltag are great because you don't HAVE to put them in your maps, meaning you can still make a map using skulltag and it will be compatible with other ports.

3.I just don't like most people that play ZD, I'm sure there are great people with amazing personalities but from what I've seen its just not worth weeding out all the not so great people from the cool people.

4.To many euro servers in ZD, But with skulltag i ping 30-50 in all the main servers so that pretty much takes the cake server wise.

5.I like that there are fewer people in ST than ZD, it allows the community to become stronger and know eachother better, this means less drama from people you dont even know, in skulltag if somebody causes drama it can usally be delt with something other than a ban *cough*

There are plenty more reasons I prefer skulltag, but those are proboly the main reasons i can think of ATM.

Th0r said:

it can usally be delt with something other than a ban *cough*

Getting sent to purgatory. =P

Th0r said:

To many euro servers in ZD, But with skulltag i ping 30-50 in all the main servers so that pretty much takes the cake server wise.

I don't think it's that there are too many European servers, but perhaps that there aren't enough local servers in your location. As a European, I quite like the number of servers I can play on in ZDaemon. In fact, I have the opposite problem, as there aren't enough European servers for Skulltag. There are a few, but they're often empty.

Tango said:

Getting sent to purgatory. =P

ROFL tango that was not necessary...>_<

Th0r said:

ROFL tango that was not necessary...>_<

Sorry, but I just had to say it. =D

Tango said:

Getting sent to purgatory. =P

Ugh, I regret helping Carn set that up. As another former member of the skulltag community put it: I was like Einstein contributing to the creation of the atomic bomb.

ST has transformed into its own game. I doubt it ever claimed to be "100% DOOM2.EXE" or "THE CHOICE OF PROS WHO PLAY 2 MAPS." I prefer ST pretty much for the same reasons ThOr mentioned, and this is coming from an OS guy. Zdaemon? Sure, it's fine if I want to play great players on a _very_ limited set of maps, but that gets old after a couple matches.

Plus, every time I sign on to ZD, I am forced into the annoying IRC channel, where people spam faces and make the most retarded of conversations/topics (yes, even the admins/mods). It is hardly Doom-related, and if it is, it's typically flaming, making fun of others, or the mods trying to show off their "XXXL Penis size" status. Get a life. Luckily, it came with that "close chat window" button, but that would defeat the purpose of the IRC bundle--they should figure out another way to contact friends for the purpose of match-making, then I may start going there more often. Just mute the lobby or something perhaps?

Whoever said you can't have a competitive game of ST? The NS code of ST makes for incredible, fast-paced matches in a good VARIETY of wads/maps. Call it Quake, call it whatever the hell you want, but to each their own.

Chaindude said:
ST has transformed into its own game. I doubt it ever claimed to be "100% DOOM2.EXE" or "THE CHOICE OF PROS WHO PLAY 2 MAPS."

Carnevil initially added the OS mode attempting to mock classic play, before classic play was strong over C/S and played mostly if not exclusively over Doom2 on LANs or over a TCP/IP tunnel. I presume later some players urged him to make it more serious. Not sure if he was moved to fix it up somewhat due to this, considering perhaps that additional players would join. I think that at one point there were some Doom2.net ST classic servers, but not for long, for one reason or another (bugs, lack of use, or whatever).

I prefer ST pretty much for the same reasons ThOr mentioned, and this is coming from an OS guy.

How are you an OS guy then? The "school" thing is not about how long you've been around, but about what you do. The proper term would probably be an "old timer".

Zdaemon? Sure, it's fine if I want to play great players on a _very_ limited set of maps, but that gets old after a couple matches.

The "want" there can't be very strong if it gets old. Limiting the maps is exactly how you set up a competitive environment; look at COMPET-N. It thrived on very few maps for a very long time, and got the keenest action. It's a matter of player activity, over map availability.

Plus, every time I sign on to ZD, I am forced into the annoying IRC channel, where people spam faces and make the most retarded of conversations/topics (yes, even the admins/mods).

You silly man, go to preferences and uncheck "Autologin to the chat channel".

Whoever said you can't have a competitive game of ST? The NS code of ST makes for incredible, fast-paced matches in a good VARIETY of wads/maps.

I guess you could, but you can have one on many FPS games. It's a good choice for those more into newer stuff, albeit that steals part of its userbase (that dedeicate energy to newer games to a degree) and doesn't have the playing history nor the raw simplicity and straightforwardness of classic DOOM II DM.

I suppose the fact I like and am open to newer things means I'm not "oldschool." That's fine :) I am not the only one open to change, and I guess those that are with me can also be called "old timers." People are too sensitive about the OS/NS crap. You are talking about ports, so it's not doom2.exe anyway. There are things in the works that try as best they can to revisit EXE, but all I see is bitching and no support. Showing the latter is what will get things done. While on Zdaemon, I only play in OS servers, as the newschool stuff is just horrid IMO (flags, ns code and such).

Chaindude said:
I suppose the fact I like and am open to newer things means I'm not "oldschool." That's fine :) I am not the only one open to change, and I guess those that are with me can also be called "old timers."

Some people got into DOOM stuff relatively recently. Or if they were into DOOM perhaps they had had little or nothing to do with MultiPlayer till recently. Likewise some of these newer people are "OS" to a good degree.

People are too sensitive about the OS/NS crap. You are talking about ports, so it's not doom2.exe anyway.

Not sure what type of sensitivity you're referring to. Had it not been for people's insistence on the subject, there wouldn't be any relatively classic way to play online (except Doom2, which is not that easy to set up nowadays), nor an engine with varied features on the other hand. What's happened between Skulltag and ZDaemon in regard to NS/OS is relatively healthy, as they highlight different ways of dealing with the game, muddled somewhat by the fact that to a degree they've been developed to be the choice engine for everyone.

There are things in the works that try as best they can to revisit EXE, but all I see is bitching and no support. Showing the latter is what will get things done.

It depends what you mean by revisiting; because if you make something new, give it a touch of something, it does not mean people who like what you gave it a touch of will pay attention to it, since you're mostly giving it a flavor of that in another mix. I'm saying this because people from projects that have have a touch of "classic" occasionally get angry or baffled that others don't like their stuff, when they should be aware that those people are the ones that like the game for "classic" elements which that project may not be highlighting. You can't shove that kind of thing onto people; they have to step forth and take it freely.

Or did you mean stuff like Chocolate Doom? I see decent support for it in terms of feedback, help, and even an online interface.

myk said:

Carnevil initially added the OS mode attempting to mock classic play, before classic play was strong over C/S and played mostly if not exclusively over Doom2 on LANs or over a TCP/IP tunnel. I presume later some players urged him to make it more serious. Not sure if he was moved to fix it up somewhat due to this, considering perhaps that additional players would join. I think that at one point there were some Doom2.net ST classic servers, but not for long, for one reason or another (bugs, lack of use, or whatever).

It did originally start out that way, but later on my attitude towards it changed, and I even embraced it at one point. When I first put it in, I got a lot of attention from oldschoolers (namely Bahdko), so I thought it was worth pursuing to try and make a bigger tent for Skulltag. At one point, I actually sat down with Bahd, and another oldschooler (his name escapes me), hammered out all the bugs, and more or less got a verdict of "perfect" from them. Despite all the bugs being hammered out, no one really played oldschool at all, and I lost interest in it. I personally did not care for the gameplay, and things eventually re-broke, and I'd start to hear from like, one guy every two months about how "Wall running works in all directions, but it should only work north/south," or something like that. Basically I just decided it wasn't worth it to continue having oldschool anymore, since oldschool is so contrary to the essence of Skulltag, which is the be the next level of Doom... not the first level. There are other ports that I think will be able to do a much better job with it than I care to, such as Chocolate Doom.

myk said:

The "want" there can't be very strong if it gets old. Limiting the maps is exactly how you set up a competitive environment; look at COMPET-N. It thrived on very few maps for a very long time, and got the keenest action. It's a matter of player activity, over map availability.

I disagree. I don't think competition falls apart the second battlefield becomes dynamic. Things are constantly evolving over a wide variety of competitive media, like the business world. People don't give up and stop being competitive because some new law was put into place, or some new technology was invented that dramatically changes things. Even in video games, people aren't going to stop playing Warcraft III (or a better game) just because Blizzard releases a patch that fixes glaring gameplay issues (or if you do quit, maybe the "want" just wasn't strong enough).

But even if you're right, nothing in future versions is going to break gameplay on maps in old versions. If people decided to become very competitive on say, Dream Duel map01, there's no reason they can't play on that indefinitely.

myk said:

What's happened between Skulltag and ZDaemon in regard to NS/OS is relatively healthy, as they highlight different ways of dealing with the game, muddled somewhat by the fact that to a degree they've been developed to be the choice engine for everyone.

I agree that it's healthy, but I've given up trying to target everyone as an audience for ST. I talk about that here in one of my blogs.

d/dx[e^x]: I don't think there's anything wrong with a "time-out" area for people who have disturbed the peace, but haven't quite done enough to warrant a ban.

I agree with everything said.

I don't know who you were tlaking to tho Carn, cause I've never played a perfectly working OS on ST, even when BahdKo came and told me to try it out, it still wasn't working correctly, which is one of the reasons I never took it up on ST.

I like playing ST, I do play it quite a bit, I'd play it a lot more if there were better servers for it, hopefully this is fixed when Linux binaries for servers are made.

Carnevil said:

d/dx[e^x]: I don't think there's anything wrong with a "time-out" area for people who have disturbed the peace, but haven't quite done enough to warrant a ban.

Sure, if it's actually used properly. I have no idea what the current situation is on the skulltag forums, though, so things could have changed. By the way, I'm still looking forward to the release of .97b and with it the possibility of a linux version.

Zdaemon. The bots for Skull tag are just a bit too... stupid. I made a coop map and tested it with bots. The bots kept jumping out the window near the starting spot and straight into the giant canyon, thus killing themselves, over and over and over and over again. They wouldn't shoot the monsters either...

Craigs said:

The bots for Skull tag are just a bit too... stupid.

They are not intended for coop and are actually pretty good at deathmatch on a lot of maps.

The bots in skulltag are also completely scriptable. So if you want them to, you can "learn" them to understand your map by scripting additional Ai into their botscripts. I contemplated doing this for Nimrod. But I am not big on playing against bots so I decided to not waste my time on something that I don't really appreciate myself.

kristus said:

The bots in skulltag are also completely scriptable. So if you want them to, you can "learn" them to understand your map by scripting additional Ai into their botscripts. I contemplated doing this for Nimrod. But I am not big on playing against bots so I decided to not waste my time on something that I don't really appreciate myself.

Really? Then the hell with Zdaemon!
Zdaemon is more or less Skull Tag minus all the awesome features and-what-not. The only reason I continue to play Zdaemon at all is because there are more players online... But when I crave awesome gameplay and less actual socialization, I go to Skull Tag. I'm still pissed off at at Raider anyway for not activating my forum account on the Zdaemon forums even though it's been 4 years since I registered...

Skulltag is actually getting quite a bit of people playing it. This myth about "no one plays Skulltag" is now completely false.