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Pete The Padre

When will the original ideas run dry?

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Well, im just sitting here drinking my morning coffee as i roam through some forum posts about maps/wad design ideas and projects. Then this gastly thought hit me, almost making me choke and die on my coffee.

Will there eventually be no more original ideas for
maps/wads in doom? I mean, at some point it all must have been made before, since you are somewhat limited to your creations with the Doom levelbuilding.
there must be only so much different variations possible to create.

Then ofcourse im thinking about other source ports, 3D support, and other goddies later added to expand the life of "dooming"
and i snap out of the panic, finish my cup of coffee and all is good once more.

PS. But hey its a scary thought, right?

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Nah. I doubt it. New people will come in and think of something new and unique. Ahh, but then again, when that happens, they almost always never follow through with their plans and never get anything done.

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True, but i mean if you think of it from a mathematical angle.

Even though some guy comes along making a new idea, it shouldn't really be new since all the ideas, all the different variations in a doom level will already have been done.

Say there is possibly, lets say; 9.999.999 different ways in making a single original doom/Doom2 map. Map making has been going on for many years, thousands and thouhsands of maps has been made in different varity. So how long will it be until we reach that magic number (9.999.999) and there is nothing new left to make
Horrid thought...

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eventually, yes, but i have a feeling, that doom will be nothing more than a memory by the time that happens. either that or they will come out with another doom, and everyone will go and make maps for that doom. (like doom 4 if ever it is made, that one I'll leave up to ID Software)or they could create a doom dynasty.
for every doom that is released, another million or so possible level configurations are available. so lack of original ideas shouldn't be a problem that I would worry about.
in time, people will find another game, and sadly doom will fall into the abyss of the past.

but it will have made a good mark, having changed the worlds' view of computerized gaming. may doom live long and strong.

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* graarhk* kill me...kill me now...

I cant emagine life without Doom! well..maybe a little dramatic but still! Doom Must go on!
The hell with the Doom3 and four,5,6,7 and so on! long live classic Doom!

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Pete The Padre said:

True, but i mean if you think of it from a mathematical angle.

Even though some guy comes along making a new idea, it shouldn't really be new since all the ideas, all the different variations in a doom level will already have been done.

Say there is possibly, lets say; 9.999.999 different ways in making a single original doom/Doom2 map. Map making has been going on for many years, thousands and thouhsands of maps has been made in different varity. So how long will it be until we reach that magic number (9.999.999) and there is nothing new left to make
Horrid thought...


There are always movies and television shows. Futurama doom anyone?

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Pete The Padre said:

Yeah you got a hopefull point there about the futurama thingy, lets hope ur right about it

I'm tempted to attempt it, even though I have no expertise in either mapping or scripting. I might be able to make some sprites though; with enough reference, it could even be straight from the cartoon.

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A good game is always a good game. You can have a series like Worms, where the replay value comes from all these interactions of elements happening at once, and nothing explodes in the same way twice. That will never diminish. You could look at Doom like that.

Alternatively, you could say that no one's got it right yet. There is no one experience that everyone clearly considers the epitome of the Doom concept. I don't think we'll ever see one, either. I couldn't possibly think in terms of "everything that can be done with Doom" when nothing, except for maybe the original releases and a scant few ambitious projects, comes close to perfecting what's already tried and true.

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Let's wait till true 3d floors become an everyday business in zDoom. I've always thought about conquering the far away mountains from Episode 1, and I think it hasn't been done yet, so here you go, an untapped idea (AFAIK...). Modifying E1M9 so you CAN walk over the base into the outdoors...

Heh, what'd you say about a (z)Doom MMORPG? :D

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Or team games/maps made specifically for Battlefield numbers (64+ players?)

As many ideas are used in Doom, the one I found the most fun is *gasp* the original idea. I mean what's better than fighting Hell with a lotta guns? Doom 3 and Painkiller were above-average personally to me because they were able to recreate this scenario (among other things). Whether it's realistic or not is irrelevant.

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I think ideas for DOOM mods are infinite, so far the history moves, the yet infinite universe of ideas turns bigger. Now you ask me, how something infinite could turn bigger? Well imagine a point, and an infinite line that cross it, now imagine more and more infinite lines crossing it (this could be followed forever), bigger and bigger and bigg... wait.. this sounds like viagra.

I compare DOOM ideas, with ideas for songs or melodies, most potential ideas are garbage, yet there's an infinite number of good ones, and great ones.

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there are still many new original ideas for doom maps ... well at least I can say that I still have many ideas that I have never seen anywhere.

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Ebon said:

Let's wait till true 3d floors become an everyday business in zDoom.

Heh, I wouldn't hold your breath. By the time ZDoom gets 3D floors (if ever), all the original ideas involving those will be taken. They aren't exactly new, people have been messing about with them for a few years now. Just look at the crazy random stuff I'm up to. And even some of those are just reworked versions of someone else's innovative idea.

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It's not necessarily the themed TCs or projects that are the lifeblood of Doom. If the game itself is good, which it is, and people never run out of inspiration to make normal, unadulterated wads, then there's nothing to worry about. Personally, I don't see that being a problem whatsoever.

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DooMAD said:

Heh, I wouldn't hold your breath. By the time ZDoom gets 3D floors (if ever), all the original ideas involving those will be taken. They aren't exactly new, people have been messing about with them for a few years now. Just look at the crazy random stuff I'm up to. And even some of those are just reworked versions of someone else's innovative idea.

Yeah, I see, but those tricks require a lot of knowledge and experience (and, why not, patience) to build up...

I am referring to 3d floors as in Dark Forces, like a multilayered map (Jedi engine). With multilayered one'd be able to build walkable terrain above the E1M9-Military Base and populate it with anti-air guards and missile turrets. Or make serious work of elevators and design a realistic blockhouse.
Maybe because the fact that zDoom already looks and animates like a modern game, we're closer to a TRUE 3d virtual environment. Say... combine the Quake source with the Doom source. The only trouble might come with Quake's horrendous BSP/VIS nightmare of days... If we could MODERATE it... Hey, actually, according to the Unofficial Doom Specs:

A BSP tree is normally used in 3d space, but DOOM uses a simplified 2d version of the scheme.

Then it isn't as hard any more...

PS: NOTHING WILL RUN DRY UNLESS WE BELIEVE TOO HARD IN APOCALYPSE.

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In order to effectively use a 3D BSP in DOOM one would need to basically write a new engine. The result would look and work like Quake or Quake II. At this point, you start to wonder what the point of writing a new 3D BSP engine would be :P

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