Notes of a dirty old Doomer...

I've been playing Doom since 1994, abandoned it for a while and restarted playing it in the source-port era.

Well, after 10+ years one would think that he has learned all the secrets of the game, but there are still a few questions/things that aren't entirely clear, so I said let's ask the community:

a) Keyboard vs Mouse:

I have been a keyboarder for most of my
Dooming "carreer", and I just wondered
in disbelief when I read 1994-1995 guides that claimed that "Doom is easier to play with a mouse": on the contrary, I found it confusing and awkward, at least when using the default Keyboard + Mouse combined controls of Doom (and they weren't ASWD). What do you guys think? Is there some actual advantage or disadvantage in playing only with the keyboard (excluding the almost instant turnarounds used in deathmatches) or only with the mouse, apart from free-looking/aiming? Are there people equally good with both? Can mouselook be considered cheating in older wads?

b) Archvile

I'm quite sure that, at least in v1.666 Doom2.exe the Archie DID NOT resurrect monsters he killed himself....that would change balance in a LOT of maps.

c) Decorations (trees, columns, etc.)

I seem to remember that in the original doom and doom2.exe they do not block projectyles, either hitscan or rockets, fireballs etc. like they do in source ports. Another major balance change.

d)The "special" facial expressions of DoomGuy, and the second death scream.

Sometimes the Doom Guy makes an amazed face (starting from Doom2, not in early pre 1.666 Doom1), or dies with a different more ear-piercing scream.
I still haven't figured out what causes either. I usually got the "amazement" face either when I was under a very heavy and sudden attack, or when something "amazing" happened, like e.g. unexpectedly picking a soulsphere after randomly teleporting while badly hurt.
So, is there a precise set of rules for "amazement" and "piercing death scream"?

Apart from that, I find that source ports really make the game much easier: manual aiming, finite monster height, and high screen resolutions all help you survive longer/hit farther/hit harder.

Decorations: hitscan weapons always go through them, both in the original and in the source ports. The projectiles seem to have changed, possibly because the original data had the wrong heights on many of the items - it didn't matter in the original but source ports have added true 3D movement (solid objects can go over/under other solid objects) and fixed the heights accordingly.

High pitch scream: occurs when you die from a big hit of damage (rocket etc).

Ouch face: there is an in-depth discussion about this in the Doom Wiki, in summary: the code was buggy and only triggered in very rare circumstances. Some ports have fixed the intended behavior.

Archvile: there is no check in the code to ignore a monster killed by the archvile himself (perhaps wishful thinking :-).

to add to what ajapted said, im pretty sure (not completely) that the high pitched scream is when you are gibbed.

Ajapted said:

Decorations: hitscan weapons always go through them, both in the original and in the source ports. The projectiles seem to have changed

My mistake, I forgot to specify that only projectyles seem to be blocked :-p

Well, this DOES however change the balance in a lot of maps, as back in the day I would have never even dreamt of hiding behind a tree to avoid that angry cyberdemons rockets ;-)

High pitch scream: occurs when you die from a big hit of damage (rocket etc).

Hmm..then that must be a relatively rare occurence: in single player, the most powerful single projectyle that can hit you is the cyberdemon's rockets, or barrel/rocket explosions, while in MP there's also the plasma gun and BFG. Also, rockets have too variable damage depending on distance, angle, splash damage etc. unless you really get hit in the face.

And about it occurring when gibbed: with either Doom2.exe, ZDoom, GZDoom and ZDoomGL, when you're actually gibbed it plays no sound other than the mincemeating one, and sometimes the scream was played when clearly not gibbed (or the gibbing sound could not be heard, anyway).


About face and archvile...well I;m too lazy to check the code myself, but especially the face always puzzled me :-)

OK, now let's pump some more questions/notes:

a) Evilution's map 30:
That's more of a WAD-editing related question, but anyway, I'm sure most of you remember that "instant death" trick in the initial portion of the level where you had to cross some columns in the correct order, or else you died instantly, even with IDDQD :-) Neat trick, also easy to do with basic doom2.exe capabilities, yet I've not seen it used much in PWADS, and after you died, your gibs were teleported into the lava pit...really weird technique, even looking at the map with a wad editor only explained how the "instant death" bit is done, but not how the final teleporting is done. :-S

b) Evilution map 31 (Egypt/pyramids):
Yeah, we all know that it lacks the yellow (?) key and a patch had been released from Team TNT, and so cannot be normally finished when unpatched, but I had seen a guide (long ago) for completing it without said key and without cheating. Anyone can dig this up, somewhere, if it ain't bogus?

c)Related to decorations/objects again:
Should older/all WADS be played with the "infinitely tall actors" flag set? that DOES change quite a few bits! (as well as making some of the original WADs and many older PWADS unplayable, e.g. if you want to jump across a pit and it's full of monsters underneath).

d) Gibbing: (again, I'm too lazy to search this bit in the SC) is it caused by a sufficiently powerful hit of *any* nature? E.g. melee attacks of Barons can rip former humans, imps and players apart, as can their fireballs. Only in two occassions, I've seen my plasma rifle gibbing a Zombie only once (yeah, plasma rifle) and also the SUPER SHOTGUN gibbing a heavy weapon dude from close range, again only once (both in doom2.exe v1.666 ). Are those things actually possible? (I guess the plasma bit is, although rare). What are the exact conditions for gibbing?

Maes said:

b) Evilution map 31 (Egypt/pyramids):
Yeah, we all know that it lacks the yellow (?) key and a patch had been released from Team TNT, and so cannot be normally finished when unpatched, but I had seen a guide (long ago) for completing it without said key and without cheating. Anyone can dig this up, somewhere, if it ain't bogus?

Strafe jump on the right giant seat and hit the hidden switch.

The high pitched scream is triggered when you get hit by a powerful attack (such a rocket) when you have fairly low health (40%ish).

Maes said:

a) Keyboard vs Mouse:

I have been a keyboarder for most of my
Dooming "carreer", and I just wondered
in disbelief when I read 1994-1995 guides that claimed that "Doom is easier to play with a mouse": on the contrary, I found it confusing and awkward, at least when using the default Keyboard + Mouse combined controls of Doom (and they weren't ASWD). What do you guys think? Is there some actual advantage or disadvantage in playing only with the keyboard (excluding the almost instant turnarounds used in deathmatches) or only with the mouse, apart from free-looking/aiming? Are there people equally good with both? Can mouselook be considered cheating in older wads?

It is widely accepted that DOOM is easier to play with mouse/keyboard.
Several of the very best players in the world are keyboard-only players though!
Technically, you cannot turn as fast with a keyboard as with a mouse.
Mouselook would be considered cheating in older wads, but that, of course, is up to the player to decide how they wish to play.
If you prefer jumping or mouselook, do it.

Maes said:

a) Keyboard vs Mouse:

I have been a keyboarder for most of my
Dooming "carreer", and I just wondered
in disbelief when I read 1994-1995 guides that claimed that "Doom is easier to play with a mouse": on the contrary, I found it confusing and awkward, at least when using the default Keyboard + Mouse combined controls of Doom (and they weren't ASWD). What do you guys think? Is there some actual advantage or disadvantage in playing only with the keyboard (excluding the almost instant turnarounds used in deathmatches) or only with the mouse, apart from free-looking/aiming? Are there people equally good with both? Can mouselook be considered cheating in older wads?

I used to play with just the keyboard and standard keys setup until a few months ago. The thought of the mouse was odd to me because it meant having to likely change to the "WASD" configuration as it's called and other things.

Though I was thoroughly used to the keyboard I noticed I couldn't turn nearly as fast as I needed to in order to catch other people in Deathmatch or CTF. (I always seem to miss people and run past them and turn around, as seems to be common. :D) SO! I dipped my toe into mouse waters and it wasn't too bad except for if I ever picked up the Rocket Launcher every wall became my evilist worst enemy. :D It took me a while to learn to aim with the Rocket Launcher using the mouse because general movement was pretty rough.

Though aiming with hitscan weapons like the pistol or chaingun seemed a lot easier (and fun :D) with the mouse than with the keyboard, since the turning ability was faster. If you have mouselook on it could take longer to aim, but it can help and mouselook isn't manditory to use with the mouse anyways. :D I didn't use it until about three/four months after switching to the mouse, I figured it would be better to get used to the mouse before I dabbled with the tricky mouselook. :D

The mousey-doodle helped me with turning and aiming with hitscan weapons (especially in circle-strafing) though it's still a tad tough to control at times with small turns and tight walks like in the Chasm if I try to run the whole thing. :P

It's also super-fun to dance with. :D Just wiggling the mouse around wildly makes the Doomguy dance awesomely. :D Though I still love keyboard-only. :D

Ouch face:

Here's the ouch face article ajapted mentioned if you haven't seen it already - briefly it's a bug that makes it only show up if you take damage but your health increases by at least 20, e.g. if you rocketjump onto a soulsphere or something.

Gibbing and the player's death sound:

A thing dies when its health becomes zero or less. Its corpse explodes (slop, gib, whatever, the sound effect is called DSSLOP) if its health ends up less than the negative of its spawn health. In particular the player starts with health 100 so you slop if you end up on less than -100. Typically this takes a rocket or direct BFG hit (P_KillMobj in p_inter.c)

If you don't take quite that much damage, the different scream occurs if you end up on less than -50. Your corpse doesn't explode, though - in multiplayer, you'd just see the guy die normally (A_PlayerScream in p_enemy.c)

I find it hard to believe you managed to gib a chaingunner with the super shotgun, because as soon as the monster dies the shotgun pellets stop hitting it and travel straight through (hence the ability to take down several monsters all in a row) Since the maximum damage of a bullet trace is 15 the smallest health a chaingunner could end up with is -14, which is nowhere near the negative of its spawn health.

(See also types of death and gibs)

Infinitely tall actors:

Opinion is divided over playing old wads with port enhancements such as proper 3D thing clipping. However I don't think any of the original wads - I assume you mean iwad maps - are impossible because you can't jump over pits that have monsters in them! If you are really stuck try reading the walkthroughs and so on at Ledmeister's site classicdoom.com.

Maes said:
a) Evilution's map 30:
That's more of a WAD-editing related question, but anyway, I'm sure most of you remember that "instant death" trick in the initial portion of the level where you had to cross some columns in the correct order, or else you died instantly, even with IDDQD :-) Neat trick, also easy to do with basic doom2.exe capabilities, yet I've not seen it used much in PWADS, and after you died, your gibs were teleported into the lava pit...really weird technique, even looking at the map with a wad editor only explained how the "instant death" bit is done, but not how the final teleporting is done. :-S

IIRC, every time you crossed the 'incorrect' column path, the linedef triggers a voodoo doll telefrag or something

TNT Map31: the EDGE source port (v1.29) automatically fixes the yellow key bug. I hope other source ports will do the same.

Chaingunner: his death animation is always "gibbed" (it's funny the things you don't notice until someone points it out).

Keyboard/mouse: I've recently switched to WASD + mouse, and am learning how to circle strafe and strafe-run -- these are harder with the standard keys (and circle strafing is much harder without a mouse).

Ajapted said:
The projectiles seem to have changed, possibly because the original data had the wrong heights on many of the items - it didn't matter in the original but source ports have added true 3D movement (solid objects can go over/under other solid objects) and fixed the heights accordingly.

Most are fictional energy attacks, so I doubt one could define a "correct" size for the missile items (defining what part of them has to touch an object for them to explode), other than the Rocket's. I doubt the height had anything to do with it in engines that redefine height according to sprite dimensions, also. They just changed it for consistency; anything obstructive should also be so to attacks. In the original game they decided that decorations would not block attacks due to the varied nature of the decorations (columns, poles, flames, trees, candles, etc.) and maybe to simplify the code.

Maes said:
Well, this DOES however change the balance in a lot of maps, as back in the day I would have never even dreamt of hiding behind a tree to avoid that angry cyberdemons rockets ;-)

Indeed; in the end that's changing the way the map is played; sometimes it makes the map easier (monster attacks get stopped by the decorations) or perhaps a bit harder (you can kill yourself with a Rocket against decorations, or waste ammo), but in any case, different. Any good port changing this should have an option for the original functionality in order to be good for older maps or classic maps, but it's not that they won't function without the option.

c)Related to decorations/objects again:
Should older/all WADS be played with the "infinitely tall actors" flag set? that DOES change quite a few bits! (as well as making some of the original WADs and many older PWADS unplayable, e.g. if you want to jump across a pit and it's full of monsters underneath).

What can happen is that maps tested mainly without infinitely tall things but meant for any engine are shittier on classic engines they are also meant to be compatible with, because stuff gets in the way, but older wads don't generally have that problem since they were tested with infinitely tall things in mind. You can get blocked by monsters, but there's always some way around them unless the map is flawed.

also the SUPER SHOTGUN gibbing a heavy weapon dude from close range, again only once (both in doom2.exe v1.666 ). Are those things actually possible? (I guess the plasma bit is, although rare). What are the exact conditions for gibbing?

Unless you were using some engine where the source was changed what happened is that you shot it just as something else hit it, such as a fireball from another monster. This phenomenon has been studied on some recorded demos where it had seemed that a shotgun had cause the gibbing.

Ajapted said:
(and circle strafing is much harder without a mouse).

It is, but it's possible without the mouse anyway; experienced mouse players tend to use circle strafing less than keyboarders because they can use more elaborate and effective dodging moves while attacking.

myk said:

In the original game they decided that decorations would not block attacks due to the varied nature of the decorations (columns, poles, flames, trees, candles, etc.) and maybe to simplify the code.

No it is definitely the height (the columns, torches, etc... mostly had a height of 16).

Proof:

Start E1M1 of DOOM, idkfa to get the rocket launcher. Go to the room on the left with the electric columns. Stand part-way up the stairs. At some point you can hit the columns with the rockets.

So source ports introduced this (unintended) change by merely fixing the heights.

Re: chaingunner: could've sworn that he didn't have overkill states, but he actually does o_O.

Ajapted said:
Start E1M1 of DOOM, idkfa to get the rocket launcher. Go to the room on the left with the electric columns. Stand part-way up the stairs. At some point you can hit the columns with the rockets.

So source ports introduced this (unintended) change by merely fixing the heights.

Interesting; I had concluded that was a special bit where only shootable things stopped attack sprites. I also just increased the height of the columns to 128 and that was very evident. The id guys could well have done that on purpose, though; since hitscan attacks were not going to be stopped then why should any other?

Now that you mention it I recall an incident where this effect is shown: Ledmaister recorded a demo where he killed a ghosted Pain elemental with an Plasma gun, by shooting at its lower section while it floated against a wall.

myk said:

It is, but it's possible without the mouse anyway; experienced mouse players tend to use circle strafing less than keyboarders because they can use more elaborate and effective dodging moves while attacking.

I’m a keyboarder and I circle-strafe too.

Wow guys, thanks for all of your responses! It's great to see this great game has still so many friends !

About ouch face: yeah, read it and pretty much it's what I expected: getting unexpected healing after heavy damage :-)
Well, I always thought the Doom Guy had an "amazed" look (not "ouch" look) in that pic, so I thought the triggering causes were adequate....although I could not understand how could anyone at iD make a face specifically for such a complex event :-D

About infinitely tall monsters:
Maybe Doom 1 didn't have many "jump over the pit" situations, but Doom2 has several places where you have to jump across small gaps or small columns, and even 2 or three monsters wandering like 1m or even 50-100 m below could prevent you from jumping. Usually, to avoid this, you had to either reach the offending place and make the jump before monsters could gather, or, if it was too late, back off and hope they moved away (sometimes, this included using IDDT cheats to actually see whether the path was clear, we're talking about doom2.exe back in the mid-90s here, guys! In the worst case, the monsters BLOCKED YOUR JUMP in mid-air, causing you to fall into a VERY unfriendly pit, or even DAMAGED you with melee attacks while 100 m below, if you only dared approach the edge of a cliff! Heh, so much for "original gameplay" ;-)

For anyone wondering, all of these questions/notes, including the shotgun gibbing, come from my experiences with doom2.exe v1.666 back in the good old 486 days :-)

Ok, even admitting that shotgun gibbing is impossible/a glitch, how about PLASMA GUN gibbing?

About Evilution level 30: Yeah, the instant death trick is done with a voodoo-doll telefragging. However, if you take a look at the map, the "voodoo doll" is located in an isolated room somewhere on the map (X: 2080 , Y:0 ).

Maes said:

Ok, even admitting that shotgun gibbing is impossible/a glitch, how about PLASMA GUN gibbing?

Yeah, certainly possible, but I think only the former human (20 HP) and former sargeant (30 HP) have few enough hit points for this to happen. The closest higher monster in terms of hit points is the Wolfenstein SS with 50, and I don't ever recall gibbing one of those with a plasma rifle. Spending 10 minutes on map32 doesn't reveal anything new either.

EarthQuake said:

Yeah, certainly possible, but I think only the former human (20 HP) and former sargeant (30 HP) have few enough hit points for this to happen. The closest higher monster in terms of hit points is the Wolfenstein SS with 50, and I don't ever recall gibbing one of those with a plasma rifle. Spending 10 minutes on map32 doesn't reveal anything new either.

Honestly, Plasma gibbing happens all the time in Zdoom. Atleast, it happesn for me a lot. I wouldn't say that its a common circumstance by any means, but it seems that if I'm gunning down a bunch of zombies with the plasma, it almost seems that atleast one of them is going to get gibbed.

Maes said:

a) Evilution's map 30:
That's more of a WAD-editing related question, but anyway, I'm sure most of you remember that "instant death" trick in the initial portion of the level where you had to cross some columns in the correct order, or else you died instantly, even with IDDQD :-) Neat trick, also easy to do with basic doom2.exe capabilities, yet I've not seen it used much in PWADS, and after you died, your gibs were teleported into the lava pit...really weird technique, even looking at the map with a wad editor only explained how the "instant death" bit is done, but not how the final teleporting is done. :-S

It's not the same lava pit, but a dark room with lava floor. I made a map that did that trick but with a slightly different flair.

Ajapted said:

Chaingunner: his death animation is always "gibbed" (it's funny the things you don't notice until someone points it out).

His normal death animation isn't a gib. He has a gib animation which is different.

I was lost in map31 couldnt find a way out, did not even know there was a bug. I didnt know a switch was in a chair, found out from a FAQ.
You can strafe run from top of steps and hit switch standing on chair in middle.

Playing in a fixed coop version of wad I realized I missed more than half the map. I think I only found 1 key the first time.

I wont bother patching it. Its pretty easy to beat without patch, but I miss alot of the map.

To be exactly precise, PDIEHI is played if the player ends up with -50 or less HP, but WITHOUT gibbing. The player gibs at -100, so this is only a 50 HP range in which PDIEHI will be played. This is why you don't hear it that often :)

GGG said:

His normal death animation isn't a gib. He has a gib animation which is different.

Well, if you look closely the death animation is a kind of a gibbing. He just falls apart :)

I could have sworn I gibbed a former human once using the SSG in ZDoom. Never been able to replicate it though.

XXoXX said:

Well, if you look closely the death animation is a kind of a gibbing. He just falls apart :)

I could have sworn I gibbed a former human once using the SSG in ZDoom. Never been able to replicate it though.

You can't. The maximum damage of a single bullet is 15 so there is no way to get below -20 with that.

It is, however, possible to gib a zombie with an imp fireball in rare occasions.

Quasar said:
This is why you don't hear it that often :)

Additionally, in the original code it's never played in DOOM, only DOOM II.

XXoXX said:

Well, if you look closely the death animation is a kind of a gibbing. He just falls apart :)

But look here at the second one, and you'll see it's a lot more gibby.

Just to disambiguate, I meant that the actual gibbing animation was played, not the "normal death that looks like gibbing anyway" one :-)

Could it be that e.g. the pellets hit so simultaneously that they caused gibbing-critical damage?

Maes said:

Just to disambiguate, I meant that the actual gibbing animation was played, not the "normal death that looks like gibbing anyway" one :-)

Could it be that e.g. the pellets hit so simultaneously that they caused gibbing-critical damage?

No. Each bullet does damage on its own and if that kills a monster any further bullets won't hit anymore.

What turned me away from mouse controls was how much retarded the mouse controls on the original Doom was:

the default "mouse controls" used the left mousebutton to fire...and the right one to WALK! Now how retarded was that? Plus, you had to "push" your mouse forward or backwards to change direction, and in general you moved pretty slowly.

Later, Doom2 introduced those combined keyboard & mouse controls, but arrow keys + mouse wasn't very good (plus, if I'm not wrong, you still had to use the right mousebutton for "walk", still pretty retarded, and there was no "always run" option, so...) and for some reason I didn't think of ASDW keys back in 1995 :-)

SO IMO: mouse controls sucked big time back in 1994/1995, and still I can't believe it was easier THEN to play with the mouse :-)

Maes said:
the default "mouse controls" used the left mousebutton to fire...and the right one to WALK!

What? The right mouse button does the same thing as the forward key.

Plus, you had to "push" your mouse forward or backwards to change direction,

If you push your mouse forward or back it moves you forward or back (unless you load an app like Novert or a similar TSR onto DOS). Changing direction's done normally, by moving it to the sides.

and in general you moved pretty slowly.

Nonesense; you move pretty fast, especially if you hit the run key. Even faster of course, once you're familiar with "strafe running".

Later, Doom2 introduced those combined keyboard & mouse controls

No; DOOM II's defaults are the same as DOOM's (install DOOM v1.2 shareware and you'll see).

Either that cheap beer you've been drinking persistently through the years has affected your memory, or you're mixing your lack of movement skills (and setup knowledge) back then with supposed (but nonexistent) technical limitations of the game. By checking any DOOM demos at COMPET-N or the DSDA you can tell the mouse in Doom/2 is pretty effective, allowing the player to move fast and with precision. The intro demos for the games were recorded by Romero using the mouse and keyboard; I don't see much awkwardness there either.

EarthQuake said:

The closest higher monster in terms of hit points is the Wolfenstein SS with 50, and I don't ever recall gibbing one of those with a plasma rifle.

That's because it's impossible: Gibbing requires the targets health to be the negative of the spawn health on death and the maximum amount of damage a single plasma shot can do is 40 (5d8)