"HR"-esque Monster Mobs

I remember in the earlier Dooming days it was pretty popular to have mobs of monsters in your levels (Hell Revealed, etc.). But now it seems the trend tends to be fewer enemies placed in strategic locations, tight spaces and tight ammo, a lot of focus on detail. The result have been some fantasic looking levels.

I was just wondering what everybody's take on this is. I often read of a level having 'hell revealed' style mobs in it, and that this is typically viewed as a 'downside' and that the 'hell revealed' fans will appreciate it.

Personally, I like some good mass monster battles. Pearson's OGRE Labs level for example had some immensely epic battles and did not leave you in cramped quarters but encouraged you to pop out the plasma rifle or rocket launcher.

Just wondering what everybody else's take on this is.

Monster herding is the most fun aspect of Doom's gameplay. You don't need to send 50 monsters toward the player at once -- indeed, Doom 1 & 2 achieved the "HR effect" with 10 or 20 monsters :-) The most important thing is to design the battlegrounds in such a way that creativity and strategical thinking is required. Hell Revealed and Kama Sutra got it right, but sadly, many "HR-style" wads don't.

There's hardly anything more boring than three-monsters-at-a-time gameplay. Such levels are often either too easy (in which case one may as well just noclip through to look at the scenery), or they provide challenge only by containing too little health or by having monsters placed in the most annoying ambushes possible (in which case it just isn't fun to play; I either type in IDDQD or save-reload my way through).

It's a mistake to regard a map or wad as HR-style just because it has a lot of monsters.

What truly defines the HR style is that the player must play creatively, as Fredrik points out. I would just add that wads that lack this aspect are not HR-style at all, no matter how many enemies they have packed in. The term "slaughter map" is more appropriate for ones where you just mow monsters down without any need for thought or strategy. That's not necessarily a negative term - there are both good and bad slaughter maps. And there are some maps in HR, AV, HR2 and KS that have definite slaughter elements to them. But note too that surprisingly many of the maps in these wads can be done pacifist style, and that the monster-counts aren't all that high on many HR maps.

Sadly, a lot of players don't seem to appreciate the need for strategy in HR, and just view them as impossible maps. I have likened this in the past to the fact that people who are not used to hot spicy food will just view it as an inedible mess, and not realize that each type has a distinctive flavour at all.

A balance between assloads of monsters and well-placed, timed monsters is always the best.

I've played maps that had hundreds of monsters but were just plain boring. Kill, kill, kill .. what's the point after awhile?

Simiarly I've played maps that tried to play it smart and add lots of traps with little monsters, and it was just as boring .. because they weren't effective enough.

As said above, HR and AV hit that balance just right, and went a little higher than most other maps by being just plain hard as hell.

I can’t play HR (and friends) on UV, so I play them instead on HNTR.

I agree.
I had always viewed Doom in the same style as Hell Revealed; just HR is like Doom on crack or something. But there has always been the element of battling a monster swarm in Doom, and I feel like levels that avoid this don't really stay true to the game.

HR is hard but its possible, I think people shy away from it whenever they get overwhelmedd. But Doom it seems is designed to overwhelm you, but still be beatable as long as you play it right. This is what alway appealed to me about Doom.

Anyways I am glad Hell Revealed is still appreciated.

I don't know why but I'm more able to finish most of the AV and KS maps on UV with some tries, than to finish most of HR, HR2 and that impossible Scythe map30 with the same amount of tries. However I did enjoy some monster-heavy maps such as Scythe map26 and many from KS, but I dislike maps like HR2 map32 where I can't see any tip of route or strategy to follow.

Maybe the fact I play Heretic alot can affect my Doom skill as this... heh.

Naan said:

I dislike maps like HR2 map32 where I can't see any tip of route or strategy to follow.

Watch a demo, duh. It helped me realize that hiding behind the blue key is not the only way to do it :P

"HR" Styled maps are the most fun to play and to design.
There is no greater feeling than being triumphant against overwhelming odds.

And on the whole, they have the most entertaining demos to watch. :)

Psycho Siggi said:
There is no greater feeling than being triumphant against overwhelming odds.

And on the whole, they have the most entertaining demos to watch. :)

QFT!

IMO The more monsters the better; just make sure the player is well equipped. Good variety among the monsters helps too (fighting a bunch of the same type of monsters gets old fast). Just don't make a (mega)wad that only Donner/Vile/etc. can beat. That's what Nightmare's for.
2c

DeumReaper said:
Just don't make a (mega)wad that only Donner/Vile/etc. can beat. That's what Nightmare's for.

That depends; as long as the three difficulty settings are well laid out, UV can be pretty harsh.

The thing that annoys me about it, is that people tend to think you just throw a hundred randomly placed monster in a map to make a HR difficulty map, but in my opinion, there is an art to it. You've got to do it in such a way that it seems graceful and unpredictable, some of the battles in Serious Sam are good examples. One of my favorite methods is to have them pour out of hiding places; behind crates, from dark corners, over mountain ridges, etc.

Honestly, more often than not, monster swarms bore me to death. I really don't see the fun it just cutting through braindead monster after braindead monster. Serious Sam 2 was the same - I played the demo and had lost the will to live by the second swarm.

I do like HR wads with large amounts of monsters, and creativity alike. Both HR and smaller maps are perfectly enjoyable, but I love the feeling of being pushed into a corner by a neverending wave of monsters and having to dig my way out.