risen3d licencing discussion

DoomWadStation said:

My condolences to the authors of this extremely important work, who were the victims of a group of people who simply, apparently, can't leave well enough alone.

Yeah, how dare those evil evil coders who want their licences respected demand the source code.

One unscrupulous faggot helping out another unscrupulous faggot. Who would have guessed?

Ajapted said:

I don't see the source code for r3dglbsp on that page. Is it included in one of the packages? Otherwise, who should I send it to to get it put there, as per Graham Jackson's wishes (presumably the doomwadstation owner is not the best person to contact).

Complain to DWS's ISP maybe?

Freakin' A. I seriously need to unsubscribe myself from this thread. I hate the auto subscribe feature. Anyway, Graham really should just release the source in whatever state its in and quit this stupid charade. There's no reason this should go on. And seriously, who cares if it's all mucked up and unreadable? Just comply and move on. You can release a cleaner version later.

Ajapted said:
(presumably the doomwadstation owner is not the best person to contact).

Write to him first; he did stop handing out CDs for money, after all. He said to me by PM he's willing to consider any copyright issues.

I encourage everybody to let the DWS admin know that that engine is harmful to the community as it is, and shouldn't be hosted without the source.

Don't be harsh unless doors are closed; it's not productive.

sLydE said:
I hate the auto subscribe feature.

You do realise that you can change it yourself in your userprofile options?

Mordeth said:

You do realise that you can change it yourself in your userprofile options?

/me backs away shamefully

Time for the shit to hit the fan again.

Quasar said:

Time for the shit to hit the fan again.

It will hit the fan until we get the source.

Bastet Furry said:
It will hit the fan until we get the source.

Not really; no one is obligated to provide the source as long as they don't provide the binaries either. People wanting to use Risen3D for any reason should simply tell Graham Jackson to provide it with the source. If he says no, they can play something else.

If people just sit by and bitch here, assuming stuff, nothing gets done right anyway.

Ajapted said:

I don't see the source code for r3dglbsp on that page. Is it included in one of the packages? Otherwise, who should I send it to to get it put there, as per Graham Jackson's wishes (presumably the doomwadstation owner is not the best person to contact).

It is included by the bins of r3dglbsp

sitters said:

They cant handle my maps, the rendering speed is to low.
The FPS is dropping death, with much dynamic lights and models.

I appologize for sounding rude, but that sounds like lazy mapping to me. I played a few of your maps and some look nice, but there is no rational answer why they would not run in JDoom or GZDoom. ZanZan has been ported to GZDoom, Doom64 TC is for JDoom... don't tell me fps is the excuse because there is nothing particularly special about Risen3D that any other port with Model and High Resolution texture support shouldn be capable of running.

Scuba Steve said:

I appologize for sounding rude, but that sounds like lazy mapping to me. I played a few of your maps and some look nice, but there is no rational answer why they would not run in JDoom or GZDoom. ZanZan has been ported to GZDoom, Doom64 TC is for JDoom... don't tell me fps is the excuse because there is nothing particularly special about Risen3D that any other port with Model and High Resolution texture support shouldn be capable of running.

I have run my maps on gzdoom and jdoom to test it.
25 till 40 FPS on an pentium 4 3GhZ with 1GB intern memory and an high speed graphic card.

So any older PC cant play it any more, to much lag.

With R3D 120 FPS.

sitters said:
I have run my maps on gzdoom and jdoom to test it.
25 till 40 FPS on an pentium 4 3GhZ with 1GB intern memory and an high speed graphic card.

Well, it's good to know they run on high end systems, but those engines both require robust systems to run in any case. On my system they hardly run, and Risen3D can run okay (at least using simple maps), but I will not use it again, nor agree that it should be hosted anywhere, unless it is released properly.

sitters said:

Stuff about testing

My laptop gets faster frames rates in GZDoom and it doesn't even have a 3D card. Not to mention it has half as much RAM.

Would you care to tell us how GZDoom even starts up without any sort of 3D acceleration. Because last I tried it without opengl32.dll being there it just crashed and said get the dll faghat. Not to mention shit like model support, and dynamic lights.

sitters said:

I have run my maps on gzdoom and jdoom to test it.
25 till 40 FPS on an pentium 4 3GhZ with 1GB intern memory and an high speed graphic card.

So any older PC cant play it any more, to much lag.

With R3D 120 FPS.

You speak strange things

tets speed

Specs:
Intel Pentium4 3.0
GeForce 9800PRO
resulution: 1024x768

Results:
glboom-plus - 96 fps
gzdoom.exe - 44 fps
risen3d - 33 fps

What port is slowest?

Did you test any of sitter's maps?

AlexMax said:

Yeah, how dare those evil evil coders who want their licences respected demand the source code.

One unscrupulous faggot helping out another unscrupulous faggot. Who would have guessed?



Complain to DWS's ISP maybe?

Since you obviously are all talk and no action, I will come to you, here. I have contacted MYK to straighten out for me exactly what it is I need to be looking for. I feel that the Risen3d port is an important part of the port community. It is a beautiful example of opengl rendering. I don't completely understand the licensing or copyright issues and in fact, even on this thread, there seems to be some debate as to what (if anything) has or has not occurred that should have. Since Doom Wad Station is an archive of sorts, I feel it is important that I protect that which needs to be protected but I also don't want to have any issues pertaining to licences and such. It would appear that this issue is not settled, even here, and I cannot see myself removing anything from my site until it has been shown to my satisfaction that there is, indeed, an issue to resolve. As for your childish remarks, they are unnecessary. I am very easy to get along with and more than willing to ensure that any material on Doom Wad Station complies with all copyrights and licensing. So - I wait for MYK to give me input on this issue. I believe it requres more research on my part since I don't understand the issues involved. In the meantime, if you have any specific complaints then I suggest you direct them to me.

myk said:

Not really; no one is obligated to provide the source as long as they don't provide the binaries either. People wanting to use Risen3D for any reason should simply tell Graham Jackson to provide it with the source. If he says no, they can play something else.

If people just sit by and bitch here, assuming stuff, nothing gets done right anyway.

Just out of curiosity, because my knowledge of programming is limited to one semester of object oriented programming, can't the compiled code be decompiled to get back to the original source?

Brad_tilf said:

Just out of curiosity, because my knowledge of programming is limited to one semester of object oriented programming, can't the compiled code be decompiled to get back to the original source?

Generally, no.

Bloodshedder said:

Generally, no.

So that means that it CAN be done. So, if this is the case, why hasn't anyone done it?

It can't really be done in this case. The best you can get is assembly code. Going from there to C/C++ is a matter of huge guesswork and leaps of faith in attempting to figure out what high-level constructs were used and compiled into that particular low-level code. Chances are that 90-99% of the decompiled code will not look anything like the original and would be of no help at all, if it indeed could even be attempted. Assembly code alone will not be of any use either.

Its easier just to post the source-code for it rather than decompiling it.

If Graham cannot provide it (as in, he has already deleted it, for example), then he'd have to decompile it rebuild it from scratch because:

1) I don't think anyone will care enough to decompile it, because it isn't worth the effort.
2) Even if he did stop distributing binaries, that still wouldn't get him out of the GPL boiling pot for a violation.

Doom is an old game, there is nothing much you can add to it to make it so much more appealing that the source should be closed, its not like it would be worth reselling it with new graphics or anything.... right?

Brad_tilf said:

I don't completely understand the licensing or copyright issues and in fact, even on this thread, there seems to be some debate as to what (if anything) has or has not occurred that should have. Since Doom Wad Station is an archive of sorts, I feel it is important that I protect that which needs to be protected but I also don't want to have any issues pertaining to licences and such. It would appear that this issue is not settled, even here, and I cannot see myself removing anything from my site until it has been shown to my satisfaction that there is, indeed, an issue to resolve.

Oh you poor misinformed soul...wait a second...

DoomWadStation said:
In memory of the best opengl port Doom ever saw, this page stands in memory of it's loss. I will forever remember this port as being the ONLY opengl port that could correctly render Bloodworks when I first released it. All other opengl ports crashed on entry into that incredibly complicated map. My condolences to the authors of this extremely important work, who were the victims of a group of people who simply, apparently, can't leave well enough alone.

Who exactly were you refering to here? You claim to be uninformed on the whole reason Risen3D died and shouldn't be hosted, but seem to want to take a potshot at us for "petty bickering over stupidty".

You don't have to answer. Just wanted to put that out in the open for everyone.

Brad_tilf said:

I am very easy to get along with and more than willing to ensure that any material on Doom Wad Station complies with all copyrights and licensing. So - I wait for MYK to give me input on this issue. I believe it requres more research on my part since I don't understand the issues involved. In the meantime, if you have any specific complaints then I suggest you direct them to me.

Just out of curiosity, have you read the rest of this thread at all? You shouldn't fucking need to wait for myk, there has been ample discussion on the subject, and it's pretty easy to tell who is bullshitting. However, I realize you're a busy man with your running of DoomWadStation, trolling Doomworld, and whatever-the-hell else you do with your life, so I'll sum it up for you.

Risen3D uses source from GPL'ed projects, and refuses to play by the GPL's rules by releasing the source code. That's pretty much the long and short of it, either the author needs to release the source (which should be impossible for him because he claims he deleted the source in a hissy fit), or it needs to vanish from the internet, as it's technically illegal to host.

Technically that is. I suppose you could still host it if don't really give a shit about coders being compensated, but hey, it's up to you.

AlexMax said:

Oh you poor misinformed soul...wait a second...



Who exactly were you refering to here? You claim to be uninformed on the whole reason Risen3D died and shouldn't be hosted, but seem to want to take a potshot at us for "petty bickering over stupidty".

You don't have to answer. Just wanted to put that out in the open for everyone.



Just out of curiosity, have you read the rest of this thread at all? You shouldn't fucking need to wait for myk, there has been ample discussion on the subject, and it's pretty easy to tell who is bullshitting. However, I realize you're a busy man with your running of DoomWadStation, trolling Doomworld, and whatever-the-hell else you do with your life, so I'll sum it up for you.

Risen3D uses source from GPL'ed projects, and refuses to play by the GPL's rules by releasing the source code. That's pretty much the long and short of it, either the author needs to release the source (which should be impossible for him because he claims he deleted the source in a hissy fit), or it needs to vanish from the internet, as it's technically illegal to host.

Technically that is. I suppose you could still host it if don't really give a shit about coders being compensated, but hey, it's up to you.

Are you always this foul mouthed?
I stop reading you as soon as I see the F***

Brad_tilf said:

Are you always this foul mouthed?
I stop reading you as soon as I see the F***

Welcome to a thread of an angry community, be prepared for this sort of thing, even if you're offended by it.

It also sounds like you are trying to ignore the point Alex is getting across (which is quite well written imo).

So, what exactly are you trying to do anyway?

RTC_Marine said:

Welcome to a thread of an angry community, be prepared for this sort of thing, even if you're offended by it.

It also sounds like you are trying to ignore the point Alex is getting across (which is quite well written imo).

So, what exactly are you trying to do anyway?

Determine exactly what is or should be on line and what is not.

Brad_tilf said:

Are you always this foul mouthed?
I stop reading you as soon as I see the F***

So you quoted my entire post to point out that you hadn't read it? Nice going there.

My argument is laid out, you choice of ignorance based on the fact that I use strong language is your problem.

But hey, keep coming up with petty reasons to avoid the subject. Seems to suit you fine so far.

AlexMax said:

So you quoted my entire post to point out that you hadn't read it? Nice going there.

My argument is laid out, you choice of ignorance based on the fact that I use strong language is your problem.

But hey, keep coming up with petty reasons to avoid the subject. Seems to suit you fine so far.

Or, you could make your point without being a complete dick. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar as they say and until you can learn to explain yourself without attacking people then they aren't going to listen to you no matter what you say.

Brad_tilf said:

Or, you could make your point without being a complete dick. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar as they say and until you can learn to explain yourself without attacking people then they aren't going to listen to you no matter what you say.

Are you always this foul mouthed?
I stop reading you as soon as I see the D***

Brad_tilf said:
Or, you could make your point without being a complete dick. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar as they say and until you can learn to explain yourself without attacking people then they aren't going to listen to you no matter what you say.

AlexMax said:
But hey, keep coming up with petty reasons to avoid the subject. Seems to suit you fine so far.

But if you really want it, the short version: GPL says you can distribute binaries as long as you give the code (with changes), too. Risen3D is almost certainly based on the GPL'd Doomsday. But no one has shown the source for Risen3D. Therefore no one has any right to distribute it.