<Poll> @ DWS [Hi-Res Sprites-Doom 2]

This whole thread proves otherwise, unless you take "everybody except mac53 and some guy on another forum" to mean "not everybody", which is just splitting hairs.

I really wish GZDoom had the HQ2X resampling... I thought it cut down on the blurriness quite a bit, and I rather liked the cartoony feel it gave to things.

Anyway, I'll have to look into that HIRESTEX thing. If it automatically scales the sprites to be the same relative size in-game and keeps the same offsets, it shouldn't be too hard to create a script to generate a HQ2X sprite WAD.

I've seen the results on HX filtering on the spider mastermind. It wasn't pretty in the slightest. Besides, the algorith is GNU GPL'd which means GZDoom can't use it.

Hmm, I didn't know it was LGPL. Is it legal for ZDoomGL to include it?

It's not licensed under the lesser GPL and I wouldn't think so.

david_a said:

Anyway, I'll have to look into that HIRESTEX thing. If it automatically scales the sprites to be the same relative size in-game and keeps the same offsets, it shouldn't be too hard to create a script to generate a HQ2X sprite WAD.

It'd be a total waste of space.

Mac, Youd have to write a new game engine for starters or SERIOUSLY overhaul an existing engine. You would need someone to make models, a photographer, artists and more.

As much as I'd love to see a new version of doom it still remains pointless. The game would lose its feel, the reason we love doom is because of how it plays. It looks shit in comparison with modern games but still plays better than most. What Im saying is that if you want a game that looks like a modern doom and plays like shit on multiplayer go buy doom 3 and when your bored of it maybe download the classic doom mod for it.

TheDarkArchon said:

It's not licensed under the lesser GPL and I wouldn't think so.

Yes, it is. The "C++ Source code (no asm)" archive on this page is clearly LGPL. The other source downloads appear to be GPL.

Graf Zahl said:

It'd be a total waste of space.

If I actually write it the point is of course to release the script, not the WAD, which would probably be illegal anyway.

amberleaf said:

Mac, Youd have to write a new game engine for starters or SERIOUSLY overhaul an existing engine. You would need someone to make models, a photographer, artists and more.

As much as I'd love to see a new version of doom it still remains pointless. The game would lose its feel, the reason we love doom is because of how it plays. It looks shit in comparison with modern games but still plays better than most. What Im saying is that if you want a game that looks like a modern doom and plays like shit on multiplayer go buy doom 3 and when your bored of it maybe download the classic doom mod for it.

You had mentioned a function in PSP a while back.

amberleaf said:@ Mac. You cant create detail that wasnt in the original. PSP cant look at your pictures and interpret them to be a monster etc.

Put simply "You can't polish a turd"

I asked you to elaborate on the process...

I'll try to elaborate:

Think of an image as a series of numbers representing pixels:

0 0 0 0 0
0 0 3 0 0
0 3 3 0 0
0 0 3 0 0
0 0 3 0 0
0 0 3 0 0
0 3 3 3 0
0 0 0 0 0

And now someone asks you to increase the resolution by filling in detail that isn't there. Exactly how are you going to do that? What should go between a "0" and a "3" ? And between two "3"s? Whatever you'll choose, will be arbitrary, and will NOT truly restore what was REALLY between a 0 and a 3.

So one possibility is:

000000000
000131000
013231000
000131000
000131000
000131000 
013333310
000000000

but also:

000000000
000232000
003432000
000232000
000232000
000232000
023434320
000000000

while the original may very well have been:

010101010
010131010
013131010
010137020
090536040
070438040
083239340
090105030

aka nothing like what you can "approximate". What was "between" pixels was just LOST FOREVER. You can make the empty spaces look prettier with filters, but they won't bring back faded skin details, fur, horn spikes, teeth, pimples, wrinkles or whatever else the original clay models had.

If you want more theoretical terms, the low-res image loses high frequency information compared to the original, aka, the finest details. Only if you are absolutely sure that e.g. between two pink pixels of a pinky's foot goes another pink pixel, you can reliably reconstruct it (which means the pinky model was not very detailed to begin with).

But for all we know, the pinky model's legs could very well have had HAIR which are just not visible at this resolution, and there's nfw any algorithm will reconstruct those. YOU, as a human being, can perhaps IMAGINE they existed and draw them back, but an algorithm only works on available picture data and tries to figure what's "in between" in a mechanical and predictable way.

It's exactly this predictability and limitations in final results that makes such pseudo hi-res attempts very undesirable. Yes, I'm labelling this PSEUDO hi-res, because that's what it is.

@Maes...

I do hear what you're saying here, but amberleaf [I thought], indicated that in PSP there's a function that will at least get it close. I'm not looking to get these to the quality all you are indicating to. If I can just get them close, then that will be good enough for me and my personal use.

Sorry, but there is no "getting it close", and saying that it does is like advocating perpetual motion or free energy and such bullshit. The only way it can "get it close" is if the original image was so undetailed, that lowering the resolution didn't change it "too much".

It's like sampling a 10 KHz sound with a 20 KHz sampling rate: theory says it's the bare minimum to be able to capture it.

However, there's NO WAY to capture a 15 KHz sound with a 20 KHz sampling rate: you will get something related to what you were recording, but nothing close to a 15 KHz sound.

The "getting it close" he mentioned is another thing: since the 10 KHz sound will be reduced to a square wave with that kind of sampling, while the base sound shape is a sine wave, it's possible to "smooth out" the in-betweens ans play back the correct form. Something very similar happens with images, and texture filtering is just like sound "oversampling", only in 2D.

mac53 said:
I do hear what you're saying here, but amberleaf [I thought], indicated that in PSP there's a function that will at least get it close.[/B]

I think you misunderstood amberleaf's post. Read it again. By the way, the "cant" in his post should be "can't" as in "can not".

TheDarkArchon said:
Besides, the algorith is GNU GPL'd which means GZDoom can't use it.

Algorithms are covered by patent law, not copyright law, and the hq[234]x algorithms don't seem to be patented. The supplied implementations may be under GNU licenses, but anyone's free to write their own under any other license...

The only way this project could work is if some very talented artists joined the effort, and provided hi-res interpretations of the original sprites after resizing them.

Unfortunately, since there are so many frames per monster, this ultimately means an insurmountable SHITLOAD of work.
But, good luck otherwise. If you want to make hi-res sprites, go ahead, and see how the final product is. Maybe some people will enjoy it.

Nick Perrin said:

The only way this project could work is if some very talented artists joined the effort, and provided hi-res interpretations of the original sprites after resizing them.

Unfortunately, since there are so many frames per monster, this ultimately means an insurmountable SHITLOAD of work.
But, good luck otherwise. If you want to make hi-res sprites, go ahead, and see how the final product is. Maybe some people will enjoy it.

I was actually going to say something pretty similar, but you beat me to it. Whatever team that would be responsible for such a task would have to know a great deal about anatomy, perspective, lighting and animation. High-quality pre-rednered sprites might be a possible option. I would totally be on board if the artists are talented and not Photoshop noobs.

Did you guys see my kick ass, high resolution automap sprites in that Zdoom thread?