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hardcore_gamer

A limit removing and a doom.exe

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When using a port when making a wad. The wad is all you need to play. But many maps for a doom.exe format i have downloaded come with some sort of a exe file. Does it really matter if i make a map for a limit removing port or a doom.exe since about 90% of people use a port in one form or another these days?

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Back in the old days it was nessescary for new sprites to but put into doom2.wad to play, so wads with new sprites had to be 'shipped' with the stuff to do it. These days ports "just" show the new sprites so there's no need to bother. Also Vanilla players would know how to do the merging themselves anyay

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Well, by the book "limit removing" should mean only and only "vanilla DooM without limits"; as such if you map for "limit removing", your map is also a vanilla map if it doesn't break any of the limits. However, more often than not we see "limit removing" maps that also use this or that port specific features without mentioning it. Mapping for a port isn't the same as "limit removing"!

That being said, no, it doesn't matter what you map for, as long as you mention in your wad's readme file what ports it's supposed to run in and what ports you have tested your wad in. As long as the user knows which ports will work, the port decision is all up to you.

...although you might want to use some common sense when choosing a port, if you map for some really obscure port that probably no one else but the port's author, his friends and you play, you can't really expect a lot of people to try your map either. ;)

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Speaking of ports like the ones Jodwin described, this one comes to mind. Not a bad port in itself, but the author's releasing a lot of utterly worthless utilities and "specific" maps of dubious quality just ruined it.

Also...yeah, pre v1.9 versions of Doom needed you to modify your IWADs in order to add new sprites and flats (euphemistically called "merging" the new sprite and flat data with your IWADs). That was done by the ubiquitous DEUSF utility.

In version v1.9, you didn't really need to modify your IWAD: new sprites and flats could reside entirely in external files without modifying the IWADs, but there was still the catch that the external files had to contain ALL sprite and flat entries for a given IWAD, so DEUSF was still needed to "rip" them from your IWAD and "merging" them into the supposedly "external" data files.

However, there are some perfectly legal TCs and some not-so-legal WADs which can play "directly" without DEUSF because they already contain all of the sprite entries (e.g. WPDOOM, which is illegal, actually contains all Ultimate Doom sprites, in addition to its hmm..."new" ones).

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Jodwin said:

Well, by the book "limit removing" should mean only and only "vanilla DooM without limits";


Does that mean that if i ONLY zip up the wad and the text file upload it
to the achives as a doom.exe it will work? I think i did it this once and in the newstuff the said DOES NOT WORK IN INTEANTED SOURCE PORT and that made my feel embaraced as hell.

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hardcore_gamer said:

Does that mean that if i ONLY zip up the wad and the text file upload it
to the achives as a doom.exe it will work? I think i did it this once and in the newstuff the said DOES NOT WORK IN INTEANTED SOURCE PORT and that made my feel embaraced as hell.

Then it probably wasn't compatible with doom.exe, ie. Vanilla Doom.
You're not the only one, though. I encoutered this bug recently: http://www.doomworld.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40530
Which turned out to be just not vanilla compatible eventhough the text file claims to be (except from savegame functionality), which is rather annoying.
Shouldn't be too hard just to specify the port(s) in which the map was tested to be working.

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hardcore_gamer said:

Does that mean that if i ONLY zip up the wad and the text file upload it
to the achives as a doom.exe it will work? I think i did it this once and in the newstuff the said DOES NOT WORK IN INTEANTED SOURCE PORT and that made my feel embaraced as hell.


NO.
That's exactly what I'm telling you to not to do. Never release a map saying that it works in port X without testing it in the said port. If you release it as "doom.exe" wad, at least test it in doom.exe or a port designated to emulate vanilla Doom behaviour (Chocolate Doom).

Also be careful with these two: "Limit removing" and "Boom compatable." A lot of different ports have varying degrees of boom compatability - your "boom comp" map might work in PrBoom and ZDooM but break in EDGE's boom mode, for an example. Same goes for "limit removing", since it's a term which includes a lot of different ports, some of them may and some may not work. So always test such wads in multiple different ports and always mention which ports it ran in, and which it didn't run in.

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Jodwin said:

NO.
That's exactly what I'm telling you to not to do. Never release a map saying that it works in port X without testing it in the said port. If you release it as "doom.exe" wad, at least test it in doom.exe or a port designated to emulate vanilla Doom behaviour (Chocolate Doom).

Also be careful with these two: "Limit removing" and "Boom compatable." A lot of different ports have varying degrees of boom compatability - your "boom comp" map might work in PrBoom and ZDooM but break in EDGE's boom mode, for an example. Same goes for "limit removing", since it's a term which includes a lot of different ports, some of them may and some may not work. So always test such wads in multiple different ports and always mention which ports it ran in, and which it didn't run in.


I am just using ultimate doom format with no extreme detail and i have tested it with prdoom, prdoom+, skulltag and zdoom and even doom.95 and it works fine. Can't see why it should not work with any other port even if i don't release it as a doom.exe

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hardcore_gamer said:

I am just using ultimate doom format with no extreme detail and i have tested it with prdoom, prdoom+, skulltag and zdoom and even doom.95 and it works fine.

Then just say so in your text file. You should check the spelling of those ports, though.

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Since you are working on ultimate doom and have tested in Doom 95, which ultimately means ultimate doom, it's enough to release it as a "Doom 95" wad. Of course you could release it as "limit removing", but when it obviously doesn't require a limit removing port that would be redundant (and might get some port specification purists mad at you).


So, as a rule of thumb:
1) If you are mapping on a non-port specific format (Doom 1, 2, ultimate...), first test it in that game's original exe. If it works, then release it and say that it's for the particular original exe. No need to test in any other ports in this case.
2) If your map is supposed to be non-port specific but doesn't work in the original exe and if it's large enough to break the limits, try it in a few limit removing ports. If it works in them, you can pretty safely release it as "limit removing", but always mention the ports you tested in.
3) If your map is supposed to be non-port specific but it works only in certain ports (ZDoom comes to mind as a popular example), fix it until it works as intended, or consider making it a port specific map.
4) If you intentionally create a wad for a specific port format, release it as such.

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Maes said:

Speaking of ports like the ones Jodwin described, this one comes to mind. Not a bad port in itself, but the author's releasing a lot of utterly worthless utilities and "specific" maps of dubious quality just ruined it.

Tragic, because CDoom would otherwise join the club of ZDoom and JDoom. I should really start mapping for CDoom -- once I finish my monster for the "beastiary" and my 60-level Eternity task.

Oh goody goody, I've been always waiting for this post. Yeah, there are four levels of maps, in my opinion:
1. vanilla maps. They have to be simple enough not to cause visplane and savegame overflows. Typically they lack unnecessary detail, are either wide yards, or minotaur dungeons, but sector decorations are rare.
2. limit-removing port maps. Same as vanilla but with tons of detail and infinite size (almost...), more new flats and sprites, multipatch middle textures. Otherwise, same old gameplay and familiar sector movements.
3. Boom maps. Same as above, but with extended and generalized linedef types, to complete the set.
4. Advanced port maps. Free-form level names and series, new monsters, weapons... tons of detail, scripted action.

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Jodwin said:

Also be careful with these two: "Limit removing" and "Boom compatable." A lot of different ports have varying degrees of boom compatability - your "boom comp" map might work in PrBoom and ZDooM but break in EDGE's boom mode, for an example.


Incomplete Boom support isn't a mapper problem, it is a port problem. Generally, if PrBoom runs the map and another port doesn't the map is still Boom compatible (because the other port doesn't have complete Boom support).

Oh yeah, there is another category; Strong Limit Removing, where the SEG limit is extended from around 32k to 64k. IIRC only PrBoom (probably Eternity too) and the various flavors of ZDoom have the increased SEG limit.

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Dr. Zin said:

Incomplete Boom support isn't a mapper problem, it is a port problem. Generally, if PrBoom runs the map and another port doesn't the map is still Boom compatible (because the other port doesn't have complete Boom support).


True, but it would be only nice of the mapper to test his "Boom comp" maps in multiple ports having alleged Boom support and mentioning in the readme which ports works. That way the player could easily tell whether the map would work in his favourite port that might or might not have only a partial Boom compatibility.

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Just an aside, EDGE doesn't* support generalised linedefs as far as i know. Which means if you use doom builder and use the "build your own linedef function" which lets you select "if you shoot this this lowers at this speed" it won't work in EDGE. Though until i started regularly using DB i wasn't even aware such a thing existed, Wadauthor, even with the "Boom configuration", never even had an option to do that.

*-when playing The Spire 2 in 1.28, the switch activated by the Yellow Key in the "hot rocks steps" area in the central courtyard. Support MAY have been added since 1.29RC1, but i somehow doubt it.

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hardcore_gamer said:
But many maps for a doom.exe format i have downloaded come with some sort of a exe file.

The ones that had new sprites (and sometimes flats, but it's not necessary in v1.9 if you use FF_START and F_END) need DeuSF using Doom, and the ones with a DeHackEd patch need DeHackEd (which does not work for Doom95). If you make a wad with new sprites or a DeHackEd patch, you don't need to include the extra programs; just mention the presence of new sprites or the EXE patch.

Does it really matter if i make a map for a limit removing port or a doom.exe since about 90% of people use a port in one form or another these days?

The only thing that matters there is what you want to make due to your preferences. The percentages of different kinds of users are hard to determine, and not the best reason to limit or shape your addon by.

Keep in mind that if your wad as it is already works with Doom95, no additional patching with extra apps would be required using Doom or Chocolate Doom, but also consider that Doom95 has a slightly higher VPO limit (making it probable, but not guaranteed, that a level tested with it won't have problems in the DOS engine).

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It mostly sounds like you aren't testing in the original EXEs because you don't have an operating system compatible with them. In that case, you can test Chocolate Doom which should give you a very accurate idea of weather it runs in vanilla Doom; or you can run the original EXEs in DOSBox.

If you're attempting to make a vanilla-compatible map, then you should do your best to test it in vanilla Doom or Chocolate Doom. Just ditch Doom95 btw, it has so many problems I don't even know why people still use it.

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doom2day said:

Hmmm... Is it compatable with strawberry doom?


Heh,31 flavours of Doom!

now, if I can get Rocky Road Doom I'm set.

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Dr. Zin said:

Oh yeah, there is another category; Strong Limit Removing, where the SEG limit is extended from around 32k to 64k. IIRC only PrBoom (probably Eternity too) and the various flavors of ZDoom have the increased SEG limit.

EDGE 1.29 is also a Strong Limit Removing port, and has been for a long time.

Deathbringer said:

Just an aside, EDGE doesn't* support generalised linedefs as far as i know.

EDGE does support generalised linetypes.

I will investigate the problem you mentioned though.

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MikeRS said:
Just ditch Doom95 btw, it has so many problems I don't even know why people still use it.

It comes with the game, and it doesn't have that many bugs, which are much less of a problem to users that don't use a system or setup where they appear, or that have fixes or alternatives for them.

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Oh yeah, there is another category; Strong Limit Removing, where the SEG limit is extended from around 32k to 64k. IIRC only PrBoom (probably Eternity too) and the various flavors of ZDoom have the increased SEG limit.

If you are referring to what I think you are, then Doomsday as of 1.9.0-beta5 can also be considered "Strong Limit Removing".

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Dr. Zin said:

Oh yeah, there is another category; Strong Limit Removing, where the SEG limit is extended from around 32k to 64k. IIRC only PrBoom (probably Eternity too) and the various flavors of ZDoom have the increased SEG limit.

What, is that huge number of Segs a problem? If the map exceeds it, the game won't load? How can I determine the number of Segs, by looking at the map from the editor?

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printz said:
How can I determine the number of Segs, by looking at the map from the editor?

SEGS is one of the map lumps that every level has. You can see it in XWE (and the number of entries tells you the number of segs).

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