Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
Dr. Zin

American mercenary organization kicked out of Iraq

Recommended Posts

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/17/AR2007091700394.html

For those not in the know, Blackwater was the largest "Private Contractor" group employed in Iraq (and possibly the largest such organization in the world). They have been involved in many questionable activities, with previous accounts of killing Iraqi civilians and even possibly shooting US citizens when they were hired to help in the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.

It is rare that I want more legislation, but I hope the US adopts laws to control home-grown mercenaries (the US has become one of the leading mercenary staging and training areas after South Africa passed legislation banning private armies from operating there). The whole concept of an army for hire is abhorrent, and there is an extreme potential for their abuse. Just look at all of the units based out of South Africa from the 60's until 1999. They engaged in such operations as destabilizing governments, serving foreign interests (often European corporations), and guerilla warfare.

Share this post


Link to post
Jello said:

Eh, it's a living.


Yes, but it's one that is ultimately detrimental to the over-all security of the world. See, now that this group is kicked out of Iraq, they've got a lot more man-power to do whatever the Hell their next job is. And their next job probably involves killing lots of people. And they can do it LEGALLY, from the United States. They pay their taxes with blood money.

The shitty thing is that it's almost impossible to ban this totally, because there's just so much land in America that some people own so much that yes, they could probably practice for war and not have anyone near enough to hear them.

Share this post


Link to post

1. Hire armed thugs with little oversight.
2. ???
3. Security! er, Profit!

Seriously though, could anyone expect any other result than this? Sadly, this is just a footnote in the gigantic clusterfuck that is modern-day Iraq.

Share this post


Link to post
Naked Snake said:

The shitty thing is that it's almost impossible to ban this totally, because there's just so much land in America that some people own so much that yes, they could probably practice for war and not have anyone near enough to hear them.


Actually, the ATF could nail them by revoking their licenses to possess NFA weapons. While some smaller organizations arm themselves upon arriving in country (using captured weapons), larger groups like Blackwater maintain stables of weapons regulated out of civilian use, like machine guns, grenade launchers, armored vehicles and the like. IIRC these groups use loopholes like getting FFLs for dealing in NFA items or manufacturing them (which allow them to purchase "dealer samples," which allow them to get around such obstacles as the closure of the machine gun registry).

Rescind the licenses and these organizations would be in deep shit. Of course they would need to be forced to comply with such actions, which would probably require a large military operation.

Share this post


Link to post
Dr. Zin said:

Actually, the ATF could nail them by revoking their licenses to possess NFA weapons. While some smaller organizations arm themselves upon arriving in country (using captured weapons), larger groups like Blackwater maintain stables of weapons regulated out of civilian use, like machine guns, grenade launchers, armored vehicles and the like. IIRC these groups use loopholes like getting FFLs for dealing in NFA items or manufacturing them (which allow them to purchase "dealer samples," which allow them to get around such obstacles as the closure of the machine gun registry).

Rescind the licenses and these organizations would be in deep shit. Of course they would need to be forced to comply with such actions, which would probably require a large military operation.


True. It's fucking utterly astounding that the ATF actually grants these licenses and allows these loopholes. Man, you have to jump through shit-hoops to get a C&R license but a "corporation" can own grenade launchers and fully-automatic firearms. Jesus.

Share this post


Link to post

USA-based merc organisations will never be prosecuted by USA law, as the only requirement to have the tolerance of the government when being a mercenary is not serving interests opposed to the USA's or their allies', such as NATO countries.

As long as they operate, say, in Iraq, and for the US government or one of its allies, they are "just doing their job" under all considerations, plus they have immunity from international courts, since the USA doesn't recognize them for US citizens. It's really that simple, have a nice day.

Share this post


Link to post

It doesn't appear like they were kicked out, just formally told they are unwanted by Iraq. While the prime minister is quite under the shadow of the occupying forces, he also seems to be impelled to urge the US to lighten the load a bit or the alliances holding him in power could break, increasing the violence (maybe someone blowing him to pieces in the process), and encouraged perhaps by the talk of withdrawing troops coming from the US.

I'm sure the reason why they won't likely be leaving is because they are intricately tied to the general "reconstruction" business, which incidentally doesn't seem to be reconstructing much except what is critical to certain companies, but does move quite a lot of money around. What better than private security for private enterprises? It's just another branch of the same thing. The US military is backing Halliburton and tons of other companies while they make their deals. Your tax money, their business (unless you're somehow into it yourself). Or if you're a soldier; your blood, their money.

Share this post


Link to post
myk said:

It doesn't appear like they were kicked out, just formally told they are unwanted by Iraq. While the prime minister is quite under the shadow of the occupying forces, he also seems to be impelled to urge the US to lighten the load a bit or the alliances holding him in power could break, increasing the violence (maybe someone blowing him to pieces in the process), and encouraged perhaps by the talk of withdrawing troops coming from the US.


Their license has been formally revoked, so they cannot legally operate in Iraq anymore. The US could try to contest it, but it would be diplomatic suicide as pretty much every faction in Iraq has condemned Blackwater and request their expulsion.

Even within the US military there is strong dislike for private contractors. To quote Brigadier General Karl Horst:

These guys run loose in this country and do stupid stuff. There's no authority over them, so you can't come down on them hard when they escalate force... They shoot people, and someone else has to deal with the aftermath. It happens all over the place.


I have a hard time believing Blackwater will be permitted to stay, especially when you further consider there has been outrage in the US over this incident.

Share this post


Link to post

Dr. Zin said:
Their license has been formally revoked, so they cannot legally operate in Iraq anymore.

Hopefully, but it seems that the Iraqi prime minister kind of backed down, or is rather two faced (saying one thing towards the Iraqis and another to the Condoleezza Rice). Also there's this:

Under the US-led Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) led by L. Paul Bremer in the early days of the occupation, a regulation was adopted known as Order 17, which effectively grants immunity to US security contractors and shields them from prosecution in Iraqi courts.

Under the order crafted by the Bush administration, all foreign personnel—private and military—are exempt from "local criminal, civil and administrative jurisdiction and from any form of arrest or detention other than by persons acting on behalf of their parent states."

Order 17 was renewed before the "transfer of sovereignty" to the unelected Iraqi interim government in late June 2004. The measure allows the US military—as well as its hired mercenaries such as Blackwell—to carry out the killing of civilians, destroy homes and property and commit other war crimes such as extra-legal detention and torture of prisoners without fear of prosecution by Iraqi authorities.

Share this post


Link to post
Janitor said:

one of my friends is in blackwater... huh

You have questionable friend-choosing skills.

Share this post


Link to post
a loser said:

You have questionable friend-choosing skills.


I will have you know that my friend is a firefighter, an EMT, a bodyguard, a poet, a part of a counter-terrorism unit, and an professional mixed martial artist. He has devoted his life to making this world a better place, and protecting what he believes in. He has helped me in more ways than you could ever understand. He has accomplished more in my community that you or I will ever hope to. I respect him, and If you knew him as well as I, you would too. His career choice is one based on his skill. He is the funniest most intelligent person i know. So, I do choose my friends well. Simply because he is associated with Blackwater (im not allowed to know what he does), does not mean that he has had anything to do with the aforementioned scandals.

Share this post


Link to post
Janitor said:

I will have you know that my friend is a firefighter, an EMT, a bodyguard, a poet, a part of a counter-terrorism unit, and an professional mixed martial artist.

This is a fucking joke, right? Please say you're bullshitting me.
I mean, where does this guy find the time to... sleep... or... eat... or... jerk off?

Share this post


Link to post
Janitor said:

He has accomplished more in my community than you or I will ever hope to.


I think that just about sums up your answer yomoneyboat. This guy sounds like a very noble person. You know that it sounds pretty over the top, but, deep down somewhere, you know this guy is doing the right thing... regardless of how he spends his free time.

Share this post


Link to post

BoldEnglishman said:
You know that it sounds pretty over the top, but, deep down somewhere, you know this guy is doing the right thing... regardless of how he spends his free time.

Unfortunately the same sort of description has been made of people who have participated in horrid atrocities. You don't know how noble he truly is (or the circumstances have allowed him to be even if he has evident good intentions) if you don't see what he does. That is the main problem in Iraq now; a lack of accountability.

Share this post


Link to post
Captain Red said:

your friend sounds like Jack Bauer

...AWESOME!


heh, we call him jason bourne as a joke

@yomoneyboat: heh, no hard feelings, it does seem a bit shady to be in blackwater.

I do know that he disappeared for 6 months last year, he came back a bit... disgruntled, and a lot more wealthy. so, i can only speculate what happened , so its beyond me. He's gone back to college and such since then, and he's (heh) dating one of my teachers, she doesnt know any more than i do about what happened. but, eh, he's quite the figure around here.

Share this post


Link to post

March 31st, 2004 Fallujah. 4 members of blackwater were burned, beaten, decapitated, their headless corpses hanging from the Euphrates bridge. They were sent ill equipped into the worst conflicted area of Iraq. Shortly after their deaths, Black water got a huge increase in their funding.

Unlike their military counterparts they answer to no one and there are no repercussions for their actions. They have no difficulty with killing civilians if need be.

Share this post


Link to post

Its more on the aspect of "Well, our citizens volunteer to join and fight, so we're not up to par on the manpower." Mercs are just uniform fillers and security detail. They're trained very well, and could double as spec-ops units, if given the right training. These guys are payed thousands for 2 months plus in a dirt hole. They're given all the weapons, ammo, and armor they need to complete their task. You look at our military. We're scrounging up junk from old vehicles to make armor. Even then, its not enough. These mercs were doing their job, and aside from that, weren't. They did all they should, and should not have done. The Battle of Fallujah was started because of the loss of 4 Blackwater PMCs. PMCs are a valuable asset on the field as they are a nuicence to public relations and media. The choice to kick them out was not a good one. Perhaps if they limited the number of PMCs allowed in the country, it'd be a different story.

Share this post


Link to post

Gentlemen, Gentlemen, Gentlemen, do we believe everything the media tells us? Has no one else noticed that the press has been trying to discredit everything associated with the war in Iraq since the beginning? You can sum up the media's doctrine of warfare this way;

If people shoot at you, don't shoot back. You might kill innocent people. No, your job is to let them kill you so that everyone left behind can feel good and say you did the right thing.

Well I've got to tell you guys, if it's either my ass or theirs, guess which one I'm choosing? Besides that, there's more than one side to every one of these stories coming out of Iraq. You don't believe me? Do a Google news search on "Haditha" and read everything on it starting at the beginning and moving right up to today. These mercenaries may be guilty of a crime, but let's wait till we get the whole story. You can be sure there's more to it.

Share this post


Link to post
Janitor said:

I will have you know that my friend is a firefighter, an EMT, a bodyguard, a poet, a part of a counter-terrorism unit, and an professional mixed martial artist.


Sounds like a dangerous psycho for me. I wouldn't be surprised if he rip and tear your guts, and then write a poem about it (all before going to a martial court for several war crimes).

Share this post


Link to post

Marco said:
Gentlemen, Gentlemen, Gentlemen, do we believe everything the media tells us? Has no one else noticed that the press has been trying to discredit everything associated with the war in Iraq since the beginning?

If only. At the beginning the media was waving flags idiotically, for the most part, till the input started to come in and the waving got less and less enthusiastic. An attack on a nation by posing false pretexts in order to gain access to its oil reserves and associated economic enterprises and increase the military presence in the area isn't something democratically inclined people would naturally accept without quite heavy criticism, if not total opposition. Most of the media doesn't even regularly make the bigger issues in Iraq explicit, such as the causes and the economic and political links to the way the opration is handled. Granted most media outlets are themselves businesses and thus not seldom prefer to deal with superficial issues rather than get embroiled deeply against the leading military power of the world and other powerful and brutal corporate interests. They treat half of the things happening in Iraq as "private business", turning a blind eye to it, and thus resorting a great deal to incidental and fragmentary reports.

Share this post


Link to post

If people shoot at you, don't shoot back. You might kill innocent people. No, your job is to let them kill you so that everyone left behind can feel good and say you did the right thing.


Iraq never attacked America

Share this post


Link to post

He means, that the geneva convention and its rules on combat are fruitless in a gurella war. And its pointless to indict people on evidence which can prove that they were indeed fired upon, or felt threatened by someone's presence.

Share this post


Link to post

Yeah, that's the excuse the US government brings up when acts of torture or other apparent abuses occur*, but deathbringer seems to be pointing at something more fundamental; the lack of any moral authority in the occupation.

* In the process, they are admitting what is evident.

sidarmas said:
He means, that the geneva convention and its rules on combat are fruitless in a gurella war.

Indeed, about as fruitless as being sensitive and understanding when trying to rape someone.

The mercenaries aren't "at war" anyway, they're mostly acting as guards for officials and businesses.

Share this post


Link to post
deathbringer said:

Iraq never attacked America


True, but neither did America attack Iraq. Think with me for a moment. Remember, our primary objective going in to begin with was to depose Saddam Hussein. Thus in spite of accusations to the contrary, our guys went in targeting only strategic military sites and installations that were being used to support Saddam's war machine. Yes civilians were killed, but not on purpose. That is the sad reality about any war; past, present or future. Innocent people are going to die. There's no getting around that. But we went there to liberate the people of Iraq. Yes there is going to be misconduct on the part of a few, both military and civilian. Those persons should be prosecuted. But I think there has to be an allowance made for soldiers (and civilian contractors) who are being attacked by hostile fire and, in an effort to stay alive, see force as the only alternative. The blood of civilians killed in such exchanges is not on our people but on our enemies.

Share this post


Link to post
Marco said:

That is the sad reality about any war; past, present or future.


Not entirely true. Yes, basically every war SINCE the two World Wars included civilians amongst the dead.

But before that not necessarily true.

I mean, Medieval wars for instance, mainly consisted of battles, where there were clear sides. One side clearly knew who the enemy was, and the battle usually consisted of just two armies going at it, unless it was a siege of course. But if you just have the two armies fighting, civilians aren't likely to be near enough to be included in the conflict (unless they were militia-men).

Share this post


Link to post
Marco said:

True, but neither did America attack Iraq. Think with me for a moment. Remember, our primary objective going in to begin with was to depose Saddam Hussein...
...But we went there to liberate the people of Iraq.


It is SO ironic that your first post in this topic was talking about not believing the media, and now you go off on how we went in to "Free Iraq." Anyone with an attention span of more than six seconds should remember that the rationale for the invasion was that Iraq was constructing NBC weapons and was a threat to world stability. It was only after no production facilities or actual weapons were discovered that it turned to "We are here to free Iraq!"

Why would the U.S. want to free Iraq anyway? The government doesn't give a damn about a number of other oppressive regimes throughout the world, like Sudan, Myanmar, or Zimbabwe. You know why? Because they don't sit on one of the largest petroleum reserves in the world.

Share this post


Link to post
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×