Freedoom roadmap

Jon said:

The reason I plan to give it up is I'm not sure the project has any focus or direction anymore. We've been going a long time, and we've achieved some pretty cool things in that time: The boom engines are in the "main" section of Debian rather than "contrib"; we have a pretty neat build system; some of our resources (but by no means all) are something to be proud of.

Some of the original goals that we had for the project are pretty much void now: one of the major motivations for many people at the start was to create a complete set of hi-res textures so there was something for ports to support. That didn't really take off and most of our patch submissions ended up being lo-res only.

What I think the project needs is a more defined and interesting goal than just "100% resources". I'd like to attract some talented mappers, for example. I think of freedoom as being a community project, but we've not got anywhere near the attention or talent that some other, shorter-term community projects have. I was very impressed with lots of congestion 1024, for example.

I'd like people who have not been a part of the doom community and are exposed to freedoom to get something which sort-of sums things up: a demonstration of the tricks, gameplay types, etc. that have been come up with over the years.

One thing that I think would attract mappers might be having a bit of self-consistency. I think the zombies are good but need touching up. The demon is great (but needs finishing). The imp sucks unfortunately, and imps are a core bit of most maps.

So it basically comes down to community building. I suppose this is one place where people can help me carve out some objectives, for the next release at least. From the outside, how does the freedoom project look, for potential volunteers? I think the website needs a load of attention. The barrier to contribution is too high.

(I think I'll start a new topic for this)

Too late. You took too long.

Basically I want to understand and make clear the step by step process of what has got to get done in FreeDoom. The order of operations so to speak. Instead of looking into the future, we gots to look at what has got to get done now.

Personally, I think the maps can wait. Sprites have to be finished, and/or updated. The fireballs are junk. The death frames on the lost soul need to be added, I'm surprised no ones done that yet. Sprites gotta get in. If you dont know how to make sprites, draw and scan us some concept sketches and I'll do what I can. If you cant draw, describe what you think all the missing monsters should look like, without looking too much like the original doom monsters.

If Jon could help us out here and let us know what he kinda has in plan, that would be much much much appreciated.

I have one half finished frame for the Pain elemental - gave it up tho because I can't sprite or draw for shit. :P Plus it's too small and don't go well with the lost souls. I kinda like its design tho. Basically it splits its "ribs" or whatever when spitting souls. Could be used as a concept if you'd make a PE replacement.



I think I could make some fireballs though, can't be too hard. :)

JohnnyRancid said:
Instead of looking into the future, we gots to look at what has got to get done now.

I disagree, and think that the project needs to be reorganized and cleaned so that it can grow from there. It's in the state it is because of how it was structured, and not merely because of a lack of will from the participants. Making something that just replaces something else (eventually mechanically) is not encouraging to creative people, and wads need creativity, primarily. Some resources are very good, but they are individual efforts that lost steam amid the mix of uneven submissions that become pointless except as a useful replacement package that exists only for copyright related reasons (which end up in a gray area anyway).

Change the focus of the project, clear the copyright issues, and rearrange the resources and levels in order to make a game with a specific and unique character.

JohnnyRancid said:

Basically I want to understand and make clear the step by step process of what has got to get done in FreeDoom.

There used to be a good overview at http://freedoom.sourceforge.net/contributors/status/ but it seems to be broken.

Sp_d00d said:

I think I could make some fireballs though, can't be too hard. :)

With all due respect, but that's not what Freedoom needs. It needs quality. If you can make the fireball sprites look good, that's excellent. But if you can't then best don't waste your time on it.

myk said:

I disagree, and think that the project needs to be reorganized and cleaned so that it can grow from there. It's in the state it is because of how it was structured, and not merely because of a lack of will from the participants. Making something that just replaces something else (eventually mechanically) is not encouraging to creative people, and wads need creativity, primarily. Some resources are very good, but they are individual efforts that lost steam amid the mix of uneven submissions that become pointless except as a useful replacement package that exists only for copyright related reasons (which end up in a gray area anyway).

I have to agree with myk here. Freedoom needs some serious quality control, and not the current "we take everything". I was browsing the 0.5 resources last week and to my horror it still contains some of my ugly flats (FLAT2, FLAT17, some RROCKs) I made at Freedoom's very beginning.

myk said:

Change the focus of the project, clear the copyright issues, and rearrange the resources and levels in order to make a game with a specific and unique character.

I'd like to see Freedoom look and feel like an own full game, too. Not like a accumulation of random resources it more or less is right now.
What kind of copyright issues are there? You mean resources or Freedoom as a name and the game's content resembing Doom?

Here are some thoughts of mine, which might help to get Freedoom back on track:

• Freedoom desperately needs a working webpage. Right now it's rather hard to figure out what's been done and what not. Who is currently assigned to which resources? Biggest problem are the monster sprites, right?
  
• Quality control of existing resources. Make a list of all resources and - depending on their quality (if a resource is "good" or "bad" could be discussed in the forum) - mark them as "final" or "temporary". Copyright issues could be checked out there, too (like, the Cacodemon death sound strongly reminds me of some sound in a radio play I used to listen too, though I doubt Enjay would bring any copyrighted material to Freedoom).
  
• Some kind of roadmap, if there isn't one yet. I guess a roadmap up to 1.0 would be cool. But what should the single milestones contain? Maybe the maps should only contain resources (i.e. monsters) that actually are finished in this milestone.
  
• Agreement of style. It's probably somewhat (too?) late for that, but in order to look like full-fledged game there shouldn't be as big changes in style as there are now with the graphics. To some extend this also applies to the maps. The existing maps could be rearranged and/or reworked to build "episodes" of similar styles.
  
• Design what missing content should be like. I.e. come up with ideas of what the missing monsters should look like as soon as possible. This might help coming up with monsters that won't resemble the original Doom monsters as much and make Freedoom look less headless.
  

boris said:

(like, the Cacodemon death sound strongly reminds me of some sound in a radio play I used to listen too, though I doubt Enjay would bring any copyrighted material to Freedoom)

I recognized Enjay's sounds as well from being from hollywood stock libraries (one of the sounds were even from Predator) and they weren't his own creative works anyway and they are already removed from the repository. He had no issues with it removed.

The ssg shotgun and pistol sounds very stock soundy (even my derived version), maybe i'll redo those

Ajapted said:
If you're talking about the arrangements of patches in each texture, that's a extremely minor thing.

I mean the whole thing; the set of instructions that help display the patches in the way we see them in DOOM and DOOM II wads. I'd even go as far as to say that what defines the instructions as such is their ability to make wads for DOOM function, at least under their "TEXTUREx" format. You can shuffle it around, mix it up, add or take a bit, but it's still derived from what id designed for their wads so that they would work the way they do.

By your logic all pwads in the archives are infringing since they all contain map lumps in the same order as the iwads (MAPxx, THINGS, LINEDEFS, SIDEDEFS, etc). Silly.

That's all a (level) format required by the source, which is free, and changing that order is irrelevant, while nothing determines the specifics of TEXTUREx but the IWADs and the PWADs that depend directly on them. All the wads that contain graphics, sounds, (nonpublic*) data instructions, or designs taken or derived from the IWADs do so as derivative works. Those containing such data aren't infringing copyrights if they are dependent on id's internal wads, since id encourages this and their user license specifies it.

* Assuming any data such as MIDI instrument lists are exceptions found in public use and not derived directly from id's work.

Had id released the TEXTUREx definitions for free or public use things would be different, but they've never made any statement of the sort and only encouraged wads to be made for their commercial wads, because they knew that one way or another the addons would contain their data.

We obviously shouldn't deviate too far from a "Doomish" theme, otherwise we'd have to throw out some of the quality stuff that people have already made.

Well, but that would merely be dictated by the fact that some of the existing stuff is Doomish (eg, a shotgun). If it were replaced it would be because someone were to submit something more fitting or of more quality, regardless of whether it were less Doomish or not.

freedoom doesn't just need a plan to move forward, but it also really needs an interest in the doom community. while hyping it up like Action Doom or KDiZD may work, that will be more likely to harm the reputation of freedoom than not. it would help to get more notable figures in the community to give a hand to the project. If it hasn't been done before, someone could contact Scuba Steve about sprite, someone like him on the project could be infinitely useful. As far as I'm concerned, I'm willing to help the project, but the lack of real organization doesnt help me if i dont know what to do.

myk said:

I'd change the focus to a free Doom (engine) game, and a new game of its own (a true TC), spawning its particular set of addon wads.

i like this idea, as it opens up more possibilities (deh/bex patches, a real storyline, etc...)

Can we take further discussion about the potential TEXTURE? copyright issues to another thread please?

Regarding the roadmap, I think we should try to flesh out short-term goals for a 0.6 release, and then more longer term goals for the project after that. I suppose the first question is, do we have enough stuff to make pushing a 0.6 out worthwhile? The biggest change in SVN is the introduction of lots of doom1 levels into the doom2 mapset.

I'm going to be offline for about a week or two as I've just moved into a new flat and I'm still sorting out the telephone + net access, unfortunately.

Jon said:
Can we take further discussion about the potential TEXTURE? copyright issues to another thread please?

How is it not part of the discussion, and the "roadmap"? It doesn't even seem like you're interested in dealing with the issue anyway, and wish to wave it off from our talk, ignoring it as it was ignored during the beginning (driving away potential contributors who wished to see a truly free project).

Er...I don't see how a "true TC" with its own set of addon wads and a DEH patch would be any different than any other TC ever made. (Yes, yes, I'm aware that most TCs don't use all free resources, but that's not my point.) FreeDoom's purpose is compatibility; I don't understand the reasoning behind wanting to turn it into a completely different game that defeats its purpose entirely.

esselfortium said:
FreeDoom's purpose is compatibility; I don't understand the reasoning behind wanting to turn it into a completely different game that defeats its purpose entirely.

There was additional discussion on the subject on other threads, but to surmise, that purpose Freedoom currently has implies taking instructions data from the original IWADs, and also restricts creativity by confining the bulk of the resources to serve as replacements for the originals. So the two reasons to swerve away from that objective are copyright concerns, and a general lack of character and creativity in the project caused by it having to mimic previous work in function.

It would be different from other TCs in that it would be totally free software. A Doom based game that could be included in any free software package, quite worth playing in itself, in addition to any addons made for it (or adapted to it). In any case, it's what John Carmack (talking on behalf of id) gave the okay to, as opposed to a direct replacement for their games.

esselfortium said:

I don't see how a "true TC" with its own set of addon wads and a DEH patch would be any different than any other TC ever made ... FreeDoom's purpose is compatibility; I don't understand the reasoning behind wanting to turn it into a completely different game that defeats its purpose entirely.

In my view it shouldn't become a "completely" different game (it shouldn't have a DEH patch, or even use Boom features). However it should still be its "own game" with some kind of internally consistent storyline and theme. Why? Because I think artists much prefer to create new things rather than re-create old stuff, and what FreeDoom needs most right now is artists to make monster sprites for it.

General compatibility with pwads could be maintained, but I think sacrificing a bit of compatibility in order to see this project move forward and get finished would be worth it.

I think it needs a dehacked patch at least to change the map names. Maybe also give sprites some extra frames or something.

I don't really want it to have much of storyline. But not be too much of an emphasis on exactly what happened in Doom. The only true reference to the storyline in Doom is that the player is "You" and the player kinda has to make up the story on his own as he goes along. Using events and things to attempt to understand what he is trying to go and what he's doing, and how hes going to go there or do it.

I dont like how a lot of traditional Textures from Doom 2 were redone from scratch to be textures for Freedoom. Freedoom should really have it's own texture theme Like Heretic or Chexquest did. Though it's a little late for that.

myk said:

How is it not part of the discussion, and the "roadmap"?

It would be something like "resolve TEXTURE? copyright issue" on the TODO list for 0.6 or 0.7 or whatever, not the finer points.

myk said:

It doesn't even seem like you're interested in dealing with the issue anyway, and wish to wave it off from our talk, ignoring it as it was ignored during the beginning (driving away potential contributors who wished to see a truly free project).

I'm not trying to ignore it or I would have... ignored it. It seems to have generated enough discussion to warrant it's own thread. This is the first time I've heard of the issue, I certainly don't remember it being raised at the start of the project, and I don't believe it has driven anyone away from contributing at all, but I could be wrong.

Jon said:
It seems to have generated enough discussion to warrant it's own thread.

That's reasonable.

I certainly don't remember it being raised at the start of the project, and I don't believe it has driven anyone away from contributing at all, but I could be wrong.

It was brought up, apparently; cph argued for a much more cautious approach, with a different palette, textures names and everything, but was overruled as paranoid. Personally this sort of concern has affected me since the start, giving me a skeptical view of Freedoom, never being sure if I should contribute to a project that merely mimicks id's work solely to get over legal constraints, even though since the start I've definitely been attracted to the idea of a free Doom based game.