DETH...

My opinion is, as the years went on editors changed and went through advancements, so did I as a mapper. I kept finding new editors and trying them, each one having a cool feature, well as time went on DB became the new guy on the block and I gave it a shot. After mapping with it for a while now I have began to grow attached and now depend on it in a way! I still have a great respect for all the founding father editors though, you have to give them props!!!

Stealthy Ivan said:

Remember that doom editor called DETH? I recently stumbled across this on a group of floppy's I have laying around. This editor sucked, I was actually laughing at it for a moment and wondering why I ever used it!? :P
Did any one here ever really take use of this shoddy program?
BTW what is the most unique/shitty editor you have ever used, mine was called REGMED and it came in the back of a book on a 1.5 (it was shareware).

Props, yes indeed. You only started to talk slightly well of the program when other people stood up for it.

kristus said:

Props, yes indeed. You only started to talk slightly well of the program when other people stood up for it.

I used to use it, it was way better then "heh" REGMED ever could hope to be, I was just laughing at the old editors we used to use compared to new school ones, thats all. A trip down memory lane. :) But this trip seemed to have started a fire which might be really cool! Bring DETH back to LIFE! Ah hahaha! Its Alive!

All I asked was that someone try to explain what it was that some considered made DETH's line editing logic "better". I know its not black and white. To say something is "better" is a subjective personal opinion.

What use would it be for me to compare DETH and DoomBuilder, trying to determine what it is you think makes it better? I'm not a mind reader.

So far, all I've read are cryptic statements alluding to possible reasons:

* Interface is less cluttered.
* Availability of keyboard shortcuts to editing commands.
* No automatical logic acting upon created objects, changing them.

I only asked for a more detailed explanation, sheesh.

kristus said:

And the two editors differ so greatly that I don't think they can be merged effectively. It's better to just make two different editors then. Otherwise you probably will end up with something similar to what Deepsea is. A mess. Which is the complete opposite of what I consider both DB and DETH being. (The one thing they really do have in common.)

Indeed, slapping DETH fetures on top of DB would make things real messy. But having an optional "deth" mode could be a good idea.

kristus is downright right in his description of deth, it never does something you dont want to.
example : Copying pasting linedefs in deth will make a straight EXACT copy, with no sidedefs being renumbered to other sectors.

The building of sectors is very intuitive, using the INS key you can add vertexes where you want, select em in a specific order and press INS again to create linedefs (with no sector affected). Once you got your linedefs like you want, select the ones you want to belong to one sector and press INS again. And so on for more sectors ... quick and easy, no automatic thing trying to screw the whole thing.

Two good examples right there. Another being that you manually merge your verticies in DETH.
Select the verticies you want to merge, and hit the keyboard command (CTRL+M) to execute the operation. (It'll center on the vertex you selected first)
EDIT: I'm not sure when this was added to DB, but I just looked into the last version (1.68) and it has it... I am pretty certain it didn't have it when I used it in 1.66 or whichever number it used to be though... Cause I expected that I would have found it then, since I were looking for it quite a lot.

Actually, DETH is built so you don't even need any mouse to perform any of the operations at all.

For instance if you ever moved something really big, and know how fun that can be. You can just select it all in DETH, and hit the exact value you want it moved to and it'll be done. It doesn't work in increments though, so you'll have to add the lenth you want it moved to the current position's value. But math is good for the grey matter. :p

I consider Doombuilder being a great tool for making classic Doom maps, where there's not much complexity going on in the geometry, but for the maps I am most commonly making, it's automatic nature is much more a neusance than anything.

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One new feature I'd like to see impemented in DETH, would be it be ported to Windows though. Would be the ability to zoom in and out with the mouse wheel.

Aha! ;)

Thats a lot more helpful. It's this kind of information (usecases and workflow) that can't really be derived from simply looking at the source code.

The method VinceDSS describes for creating sectors does sound like it would be quicker to use (place vertexes first, then play "dot-to-dot") rather than a sector-by-sector, "place vertexes in a loop" tool. Though obviously, it shouldn't replace it, as the latter is likely more intuitive for newbies.

I love DETH, never stopped using it even after BUYING a copy of deepsea which I really only used for making texture wads and for copying and pasting stuff from one map to another. All my real editing was done in DETH and still is with a wee bit of help from dosbox.

A nice new version of DETH for windows would literally be a dream come true especially now that my girlfriend has my win98 pc packed away in boxes to save space. be nice to have zennode integrated with it.

Ive tried most of the old school editors but really only liked DEU then DETH. I wont slag the other ones because I never really gave them much of a chance to impress me but both times I tried Doom Builder it messed up my maps. I know loads of good mappers love DB so it must be good but I guess it just cant make the sort of maps Im working on now.

DETH was the man, though my display settings always seemed to register at a warped resolution. I couldn't find any options to fix that. Probably a version with such an incompatibility.

DETH still is 'the man' if you dont need a 3d view while editing and especially if you want to make larger more complex maps.

any news from this DETH porting to win32 ?

VinceDSS said:

any news from this DETH porting to win32 ?

I've been using DOSbox to run DETH and it seems to work pretty good. Only had it crash (DOSbox, not DETH) on me a few times, and only when quitting DETH after I had allready saved.

well, it is not an issue for me since I kept my old win98 systems (got 3 in case one dies:) ).

But a modern editor that behaves like deth with some of the neat features of DB, especially the preview, is something I am greatly look forward to.

I wouldn't mind paying a fee for such a port :D because I know deth and how useful and neat it is for my mapping style and logic.

VinceDSS said:
I wouldn't mind paying a fee for such a port :D

Well, if you really want to pay for a "modern" editor that's based on DETH, there's always Deepsea.

deepsea is bloated with all kind of stuff I dont need...

I second that, its a great editor but trying to use it like DETH is a royal pain in the arse, all those extras just make it distracting at best, sometimes even intimidating. I actually bought a copy so I know what Im talking about. It does have the option to work with DETH commands but it just doesnt feel right or work the same way, its really hard to think why it doesnt work but it just doesnt for me, the words clumsy and clunky spring to mind.

quasar has been quite silent about this, so I hope the project is not dropped.

Just thought I'd mention though SLADE has line drawing, you can also create map geometry the same way as DETH.

it kinda does behave like deth but there are a couple things here and there that needs to be adjusted as well as a bunch of options to be added. This is pretty bare as of now :D

VinceDSS said:

it kinda does behave like deth but there are a couple things here and there that needs to be adjusted as well as a bunch of options to be added. This is pretty bare as of now :D

Feel free to post in this thread then ;)