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DJShrimpy

We're all going to be RICH

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Fraggle makes a much more convincing argument. Suppose Little White Mouse sold a CD of her mod, Chosen. All the artwork and maps are her design... nobody but her owns the copyright to them. She is free to sell that copyright any way she sees fit... provided she doesn't infringe on id's copyright and release their resources.

Even more important.. hasn't Carmack even STATED that he released Quake 3 under GPL to give amateur mod makers a chance to create their own products to sell?

Even if giving the exe away for free is illegal... what's to stop a Doom modder from saying "You buy this wad with MY content for X dollars and I'll include the GPL source port to run it for free so you don't have to download it." There's nothing illegal about making a wad the iwad so it doesn't require the doom.wad file. This would be akin to selling Freedoom when it is finished.

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I'm thinking that by releasing the source id protected in effect the wad format which id owns.
You own your artwork but you cannot charge for it if you include it in a doom wad.
Unless someone made an engine not based on the source that can run somehow doom wads. And the license of that engine is "IM AN ANARCHIST! YOU CAN DO WHATEVER THE FUCK YOU WANT WITH THIS ENGINE" or something like that.
The wad format is the chicken, all eggs must obey the law of their mother.
If you never installed and played doom however you're not bound by the
agreement. So if you download zdoom and make a wad for it, you can start making money.
Source engine can ask money too,isn't?

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Scuba Steve said:

Fraggle makes a much more convincing argument. Suppose Little White Mouse sold a CD of her mod, Chosen. All the artwork and maps are her design... nobody but her owns the copyright to them. She is free to sell that copyright any way she sees fit... provided she doesn't infringe on id's copyright and release their resources.

Even more important.. hasn't Carmack even STATED that he released Quake 3 under GPL to give amateur mod makers a chance to create their own products to sell?

Even if giving the exe away for free is illegal... what's to stop a Doom modder from saying "You buy this wad with MY content for X dollars and I'll include the GPL source port to run it for free so you don't have to download it." There's nothing illegal about making a wad the iwad so it doesn't require the doom.wad file. This would be akin to selling Freedoom when it is finished.


You mean if it's finished. Just kidding.

I agree. The source for doom is public, so I don't see what the problem is.

In fact, I'd take it one step further. Why give out the source code, but keep the iwads for the original games!? That's like giving out PSPs while telling people you still have to pay for the game.

No, it's more like giving away Game Boys. Those things are useless without the games, like the source code is useless without the wads! And most people don't have the resources or time to make their own.

Fortunately, Freedoom is helping to solve this, but it still ticks me off.

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The wad format is just a compression format... it doesn't matter where I put it. ZDoom supports PK3 files... you don't even NEED the .wad format. Even if SOMEHOW id told me what to do with my stuff when I put it into a .wad file... they would CERTAINLY have no control over a pk3 file... which ZDoom accepts. Therefore I could sell a CD with a PK3 file and my wad... and tell people to get ZDoom.

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Another thing to consider when reading the EULA is the protection of trademarks. Any addon has to state that it's for the DOOM games, and in the process generally uses the trademark (without permission, which is sometimes legal through fair use). Spelling the name of DOOM II incorrectly or without emphasis (both of which occur in the eBay item, where it is typed as a name in a commercial situation) still refers to the trademark (the name of the game), and might constitute abuse.

Scuba Steve said:
Suppose Little White Mouse sold a CD of her mod, Chosen. All the artwork and maps are her design... nobody but her owns the copyright to them. She is free to sell that copyright any way she sees fit... provided she doesn't infringe on id's copyright and release their resources.

I haven't looked at the addon, but if it went as far as having original texture definition lumps (unlike the current Freedoom), I'm sure there would be little, if anything, to question.

Even more important.. hasn't Carmack even STATED that he released Quake 3 under GPL to give amateur mod makers a chance to create their own products to sell?

Not sure what you mean by that. That he favors community activity, I can see that, and while he's arguably the most important guy in the company currently, he doesn't work alone.

fraggle said:
They were originally trying to get anyone making tools for editing Doom to sign special licenses, for example.

These tools depended on hacking into their work, so being a result of it, could easily contain parts of their work in one way or another. To settle this in a relatively simple manner allowing the editing activity, they proposed the license, which protected their work and gave the hackers assurances of not being sued or questioned (again, even if their utilities did contain derivative stuff).

EDIT: to the copyright/trademark

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Coldfusio said:

I'm thinking that by releasing the source id protected in effect the wad format which id owns.

No, they don't "own" the WAD format. It's just a sequence of bytes. In some cases you can patent file formats (MPEG is patented, for example), but there is basically nothing in the WAD format novel enough to be patented.

It's easy to fall into this trap and assume that companies can just "own" anything. They can't. The law grants only grants a limited number of specific rights:

* Copyright: used to protect an original artistic work. If you write a book, or record a song, you can control how that is distributed, for example. Doom levels come under this, as do computer programs.

* Trademarks: Mostly "Brand names" and logos. You can't open a restaurant and use the McDonalds logo, for example. Similarly, you can't make a game and use the Doom characters in it, because those are trademarks.

* Patents: Used to protect inventions. There are strict rules about what you can patent - it has to be non-obvious and new. You can sometimes get patents invalidated if you can demonstrate that someone else already did it. In most countries you can't patent computer algorithms (like a file format or a compression algorithm) but American patent law is broken and lets you do this.

* There are others but they differ from country to country and aren't as relevant; the above are the "standard" three.

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DoomCup said:

In fact, I'd take it one step further. Why give out the source code, but keep the iwads for the original games!?

You're looking at it backwards. They had a reason for keeping the source secret, which is that they could license the Doom engine to other companies. After several years, they had no reason to any more, as nobody was interested.

They have two incentives to keep the IWADs proprietary. Firstly, people still buy Doom, so they can make money off it. Secondly, if they released it as GPL free they would probably have trademark issues (anyone could sell their own game containing the Doom graphics)

That's like giving out PSPs while telling people you still have to pay for the game.

Actually, most games consoles nowadays are sold at a loss. They make money off sales of games.

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myk said:

I haven't looked at the addon, but if it went as far as having original texture definition lumps (unlike the current Freedoom), I'm sure there would be little, if anything, to question.

That's really grasping at straws. It doesn't matter if there is a lump in a zip file called COMPSPAN... so long as that file isn't id's copyrighted artwork, it's legal. id doesn't hold the copyright on the name COMPSPAN. As long as one includes their own material in a wad file, there is nothing id can do to stop them from selling it.

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It's not the name of the lump or its format that I'm arguing about, but that a specific texture definitions lump contains design elements that make the games look like they do. I discussed that at length with the guys, and there are two or three threads about it (in the Freedoom forum and I think one from news)

fraggle said:
Trademarks: Mostly "Brand names" and logos. You can't open a restaurant and use the McDonalds logo, for example.

Logos are among the most distinct (and more easily registered) forms of trademark, but trademarks also apply to names. That's why in articles sometimes they just name brands or companies and make acknowledgment disclaimers at the bottom about trademarks. If the trademark is a common word, a standard name, or has equivalents in other companies or trades, in general there's a problem only if the context insinuates it (although context naturally matters in any case).

Similarly, you can't make a game and use the Doom characters in it, because those are trademarks.

I haven't seen any indication that they are trademarked (the owner generally explicitly claims a trademark*), but using them or imitating them may still incur copyright infringement.

* When a DOOM product is presented the only things claimed to be trademarks are the logos, company name, and game names (including compilation names).

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Throw a bunch of PNGs/BMPs in a PK3 file and call them every single name from the Doom texture lump. Add a ZDoom specific texture lump and it will do the same thing as a wad file and the Doom texture lump. There is nothing special about the layout of the lump that can be copyrighted. I say again, it is completely legal to sell a wad if id's intellectual property is removed.

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Scuba Steve said:
Throw a bunch of PNGs/BMPs in a PK3 file and call them every single name from the Doom texture lump. Add a ZDoom specific texture lump and it will do the same thing as a wad file and the Doom texture lump. There is nothing special about the layout of the lump that can be copyrighted.

The texture lump does more or less what the outlines of figures do in drawings, such as in comic strip. It's essential to the design you see as a user. Those names are indicators that along with the alignments and other TEXTURE specifications generate that specific framework for the design. You have three tiers in the basic design of the levels of a wad:

  • Raw textures (the patches and flat graphics)
  • Texture arrangement (TEXTUREx and PNAMES combined)
  • Level layout (the ExMx or MAPx lump groups)
All three tiers contribute to the creative design which is not whole (can't be considered as such) without them all. Each of the three tiers takes work of its own (drawing base graphics, prearranging those graphics in different useful ways, placing the prepared graphics in a level).

The special thing is the creative work that went into them, and their concrete place in that creative design. And the TEXTUREx arrangement is neither something generic that is automatically dependent on the other tiers, nor something id copied from a public source. If they (copies of these specific TEXTUREx lumps) are found in existing patch wads, it's because they took it from the DOOM or DOOM II internal wads, and are thus derivative (in taking this portion of the design as a base).

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exp(x) said:
That sounds about as dumb as the idea of software patents.

Try explaining that, and explain the design (and any creativity behind it) presented to the user in the game without considering the TEXTUREx lump thus. How is it not part of the expression of the creative design?

Unless you're just expressing it pisses you off to see that perhaps it is copyrightable, that is.

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Won for $6.50, jesus christ. I'm going to paste a bunch of random pwads onto a floppy and sell it as an "unreleased map pack".

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DJShrimpy said:

Won for $6.50, jesus christ. I'm going to paste a bunch of random pwads onto a floppy and sell it as an "unreleased map pack".

Make sure you include 11_BONES.WAD on there.

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Who honestly would buy this? Not that is illegal, but who would. I mean, theres 1000s of wads floating out there. But i would agree, that a total conversion wad that doesnt include any id artwork is ok to sell.

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I wonder if this applies to other games whose engine has been made gpl'ed. And also, for example, tools that are used to make maps. Like for example, that doom map editor, name escapes me, that is sold commercially. Wonder if thats allowed.

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kooltore said:
And also, for example, tools that are used to make maps. Like for example, that doom map editor, name escapes me, that is sold commercially. Wonder if thats allowed.

Back in the day id issued a special license allowing editing tools to be sold. If I recall correctly, the DeepSea guy said he signed it.

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kooltore said:
But, does that license need to be signed these days to sell customa made maps?

According to id levels can't be sold. This is based on the philosophy used by many digital media and software manufacturers that they offer the stuff "on license" instead of selling it*, and thus you don't get the rights of an owner of a copy. It's legally debatable and has had different results at court, but aside from that there's only whether the addon is derivative (i.e., contains copyrighted info from the original, modified or otherwise, as applies to any creation or product).

* From what I could put together, by arguing that software and said media is not the same as printed publications, being practically impossible to be materially accountable.

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Ah ok. So if it's a 100% non-derivative work, then it's ok. And id cant do crap about it. Kool. I think ill dig up my custom made doom wad floppy disks. heheheh

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kooltore said:
So if it's a 100% non-derivative work, then it's ok.

I would agree with that, though it's up to the law to decide, as there's an ongoing judiciary dispute about the application of software licenses. In some cases users have been successfully sued for breaching said licenses in ways traditional copyright would have allowed.

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I'm sure I saw that second listing before the first one was over. Maybe thinks he can get lucky and find 2 suckers to buy the same stuff.

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Also note that Mr myhugedeals says "These levels were (and still are) very popular with Doomers".


Someone outside the community is trying to get money out of pwad which includes 21 NEW levels and includes NEW sounds.
See here:http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300176974722
I understand this as no original artwork apart from sound.

I have played many wads the community made all for "free".
So I consider this auction of myhugedeals a little bit unfair.
Not that I want to defend the rights of wadauthors. I'm protecting my hobby.

Edit: @Matt, if so then here:http://myworld.ebay.com/myhugedeals/ catherina 1969 or whatever his name will show up sooner or later.
Did you also notice that he removed that broken tv and that other item he mentioned he had to sell because his wife has cancer?

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Scuba Steve said:

Fraggle makes a much more convincing argument. Suppose Little White Mouse sold a CD of her mod, Chosen. All the artwork and maps are her design... nobody but her owns the copyright to them. She is free to sell that copyright any way she sees fit... provided she doesn't infringe on id's copyright and release their resources.

Even more important.. hasn't Carmack even STATED that he released Quake 3 under GPL to give amateur mod makers a chance to create their own products to sell?

Even if giving the exe away for free is illegal... what's to stop a Doom modder from saying "You buy this wad with MY content for X dollars and I'll include the GPL source port to run it for free so you don't have to download it." There's nothing illegal about making a wad the iwad so it doesn't require the doom.wad file. This would be akin to selling Freedoom when it is finished.


I tried this, and people leapt onto my back and complained about how I was doing something illegal by making my wad the iwad, so I ended up taking the extra stuff out...

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additup said:
I tried this, and people leapt onto my back and complained about how I was doing something illegal by making my wad the iwad

They should, unless you used 100% free-to-use resources, as opposed to any stuff by companies and authors not granting usage permission.

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Is that the case if I were to try to sell what I'd created, or is that also the case if I distribute it in any way at all (without seeking profit)?

Edit: If the latter is the case, then what was Scuba Steve talking about with this line; "There's nothing illegal about making a wad the iwad so it doesn't require the doom.wad file."

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