Skulltag 97D Preview

Gez said:

That's the thing. It sure would be nice to have the possibility to look at the code, but the decision to open or close it rests solely in Carnevil's hands.

I didn't say it was popular with the mongs for no reason.

myk said:

It looks like it was similar to Ling's experience with Doomworld; leaving it in other people's hands to more or less retire, but eventually rejoining anyway.

In carns case it was more like "this shit is starting to suck, I quit" and when it started to not suck again the tune changed to "o hai gais i am bak"

Aabra said:

To all who love to scream at us... we understand your point of view and appreciate your comments.

I want to know the members of this "we"

John Smith said:

I didn't say it was popular with the mongs for no reason.

Are you saying it's false?

Gez said:

No, the argument is that anyone can create a GPL multiplayer port and use it as a "nuh-huh" retort to comments about multiplayer ports being closed. But that nuh-huh retort won't be valid until said GPL port becomes a major player (for as much as anything can be a major player is so niche a sector).

The major player here is ZDaemon, which went from open to closed. Skulltag, no matter how edgier it is, is the minor player. Odamex is not even a player yet.

No, that really isn't the argument. Congratulations on missing the point entirely. No one cares who the "major players" are. The size of your user base is completely irrelevant. It's about as significant to the discussion as which port has the most features or the fastest netcode. None of that matters in the slightest.

The argument, put simply, is that taking open source code to create a closed source project, is wrong.

Skulltag should be open source. So should ZDaemon. Odamex is the only client/server port doing the right thing. As it's already been stated numerous times in this thread, this community owes it's very existence to the open source movement. You would not have Skulltag, or any other port for that matter, had the Doom source not been released. Think about that next time you start talking nonsense about how many players you have.

DooMAD said:

The argument, put simply, is that taking open source code to create a closed source project, is wrong.

But, unfortunately, allowed by the original Doom source code license.

I deleted skulltag from my hd.
That I don't even play online makes this post even more pathetic.
But we thinks it should be open source.

Odamex is the only client/server port doing the right thing.

Doomsday is client/server and the source is open. Multiplayer just hasn't been focused on much as of yet.

DaniJ said:

Doomsday is client/server and the source is open. Multiplayer just hasn't been focused on much as of yet.

My mistake, it's hard to keep up to date with all these ports, heh. There's probably a few others I'm not aware of as well.

Personally, and obviously in no way intended to insult anyone (particularly the Skulltag team as I do think the port is great and has some great features), I think Skulltag should be open source.

As other people have mentioned, by keeping the source to Skulltag closed is completely against the generosity of id Software for even releasing the source code in the first place. Though there may be such security issues and what not, taking open source code, modifiying and adding to it, and then not releasing it into the public domain does seem a little unfair.

People have listed various advantages to releasing the source as well anyway.

Open

skulltag is quasi-open,as new zdoom features and bugfixes get transferred to st and back every once in a while as graf zahl has access to st's sourcecode. it's basically Gzdoom with an enhanced network support.

Of coarse it should be open. Being closed is a spit in Carmack's face if you ask me.

I'll say this- of course some of the program can be open- but the networking parts (that people can use to cheat with) should be closed.

Alternatively, Skulltag could take the Odamex route.

Howerver, all these things might not work in certain situations, and the most secure method, which would be having someone to watch the servers all the time, would take time and effort and is useless in the long run.

What this really tells me is that we can't trust people to be good sports anymore. I don't think we ever could. There will always be some fucknut out to crash servers/cheat/ruin everyone's fun for reasons too numerous but never justifiable.

Csonicgo said:
I'll say this- of course some of the program can be open- but the networking parts (that people can use to cheat with) should be closed.

That's what I suggested in the news thread. Even some Quake ports do this, where releasing the code is a given, because (fortunately for them) Quake is purely under the GPL. Doing that, if not as transparent as Odamex's model, would still show goodwill towards the code shaing idea behind Carmack's gift, placing Skulltag in a better situation than the Stalinist ZDaemon in that respect. It wouldn't be hard to encourage people in the community to submit an open sourced alternative module for the servers, as well, without compromising tournament or generic public server security.

It would be faster to just get the ZDoom 2.1.7+ source and merge it with ZDaemon 1.06/ST .91 source to make it Client/Server and just call it Open Tag.

HEH.


Sure open source has plenty of advantages, however that doesn't mean its all fun in the park. The disadvantage to being open source is that once its open its nothing that can just be undone if decided it wasn't a good or liked idea after all. ZDaemon tried to do it, but so far it isn't really working for them. And since I like playing Skulltag online I don't want to see it get hacked again. Who's going to program for Skulltag to make it better? myk? John Smith? exp(x)? Who's going to implement punkbuster if it is hacked? I know Carn/Torr/Rive don't want to. If it is hacked and we do find a way to find out who's hacking and who's not, what are we supposed to do? Ban them? Just like ZDaemon? There are probably less than 10 people banned from the skulltag master server right now. If an aimbot is created then we'd might as well add the ZDaemon banlist to our master. Hasn't the past with what happened to CSDoom and ZDaemon taught anyone anything? And before anyone just busts out with "ODAMEX!!!" let me say this. The point previously was that since nobody plays odamex yet it isn't worth hacking yet. That doesn't mean it can't be or that it will not be hacked. Not even big companies with millions of dollars can find a way to keep their games hack-proof. What chance does a little multiplayer doom port have? Also Risen3D seems pretty dead now that the source is open. I don't want to see Skulltag die because people gripe to the devs long enough to push them over the edge and release the source and leave just like Risen3D.
(Also I just want to point out I really do like Odamex and the fact that it is open source. I just know certain people will try using it as an example of an open source multiplayer doom port that for some reason people think is invulnerable.)

Why not just make ZDoom better so that when ST updates to the latest ZDoom SVN Skulltag would as a result get better too? I tell people all the time that if they want to make ST better then they can work on the Linux portion of ZDoom/GZDoom to make it more stable and functional. Who has done that? It took a few years for Costja to come from nowhere and port GZDoom to linux when Torr was already close. Who's going to do that for Skulltag? Nobody since the people that want it open source aren't in the Skulltag community or don't even LIKE Skulltag. Skulltag is already getting plenty of work done on it. ST gets worked on more in a week then most open source projects get worked on in a month. Most of the stuff within Skulltag's source is already in the open source GZDoom anyway. In fact most of Skulltag can be remade for GZDoom in DECORATE now and pretty much the only part that isn't in GZDoom is the netcode.

Anyway if people want an open source C/S GZDoom with a few little extra goodies so badly then get started on GZDoomCS already. Surely the fact that it would be an open source Skulltag clone will make people run to it and donate their time, money, and programming knowledge to it!

Also I'm sure people will tell me that I missed the point entirely and to just shut up and cry to the point where Carnevil lets the source be released already. Well what is really better? A fine-working, legally closed-source doom port that is a lot of fun with devs that want to do as much as they can for the community without risking the death of the source port yet at the same time if the devs don't want to deal with the port anymore they can release the code? Or the release of a dead source code?

Also before people point out the fact that most of my post is "what-ifs" I want to point out that they would probably come true. Why? Because that is what happened in the past. Its what happened to CSDoom, ZDaemon, Risen3D, and I wouldn't be surprised if it happened to Odamex, and Skulltag if it were open-source.

It's pretty pointless to keep pestering the multiplayer community to release their source. It's entirely driven by the egos of the maintainers, and what they're most afraid of is competition. They don't want any individuals to 'use' the skulltag or zdaemon source to create competative source ports. Their security concerns are pretty transparent, since every single id software game starting with Quake has had a GPL-only source release and all of them have done just fine with a simple anti-cheat module (and really it's debatable how effective those are).

Unfortuniatly, due to the state of online doom, their closed systems are working out pretty well, with little competition. Odamex is still chugging along, but it's far from being taken seriously as a source port, and is seriously suffering from lack of outside developer and player interest. Other source ports don't even consider netplay a priority, or if they do it's a very rudamentary and a 'back burner' sort of solution.

I used to enjoy playing doom online. However, being unwelcome in both communities has sucessfully driven me off of it, which is a damn shame. I know that people have dirty laundry on me, but honestly I can chalk up anything I might have done to gotten myself in trouble up to the fact that the community itself was so full of easily-offended idiots, and most of the mature competition stopped playing long ago, is stuck in occational IDL matches on private servers, or is still stuck in doom2.exe land. Somehow, when playing Warsow and Quakeworld, I don't get any flak at all.

However, as long as Doomworld accepts news about Skulltag, there will continue to be these arguments. Doomworld is one of the biggest doom-related sites left in existance, and the development team probably feels like the free publicity on the front page is worth the disdain they get from the community at large on the doomworld forums.

Vulture said:
A fine-working, legally closed-source doom port that is a lot of fun with devs that want to do as much as they can for the community without risking the death of the source port yet at the same time if the devs don't want to deal with the port anymore they can release the code? Or the release of a dead source code?

The legally part is always relative when it comes to ZDoom engines, but let's leave that aside. After all, opening the source is not merely a legal matter, it's to a great degree a community issue. Skulltag may "work fine" as it is, but it is also crippled in itself because it's closed.

The disadvantage to being open source is that once its open its nothing that can just be undone if decided it wasn't a good or liked idea after all.

What? An open source project can certainly have a development team hierarchy if the team desires it. This goes both ways anyway, and by closing things and making them more restrictive you get the same issue; shitty features implemented by a few hands, where few people can change things or revert any incorrect changes. With an open source scenario alternatives contributions are an option for strengthening the project, which can be taken or discarded as seen fit by the team.

Who's going to program for Skulltag to make it better? myk? John Smith? exp(x)? Who's going to implement punkbuster if it is hacked? I know Carn/Torr/Rive don't want to. If it is hacked and we do find a way to find out who's hacking and who's not, what are we supposed to do? Ban them? Just like ZDaemon?

How is the ZDaemon team's inability to deal with cheats a factor here? Lot's of Skulltag's code is similar to code that's available. Man, were Skulltag more popular, I bet there'd be more Skulltag cheats to take care of. Besides, yes, any such people could indeed contribute fixes or suggest improvements to any code they could get a hand on.

You criticize ZDaemon's problems due to opening the source, but then what do you think allowed it to grow into the most popualr online engine in the first place? A big deal of that was the community impetus given precisely by the availability of the source.

Since a lot of the source is available anyway, cheat seekers can look at what's available, and then can generate cheats by backward engineering the binaries. But on closing the whole source the first part of the community to suffer is those who would contribute directly, and those who need more freedom to get the program running in the first place.

If you're going to refrain from releasing code, do so with what's essential for security, not the whole thing. Like I said above, that could even allow the team to encourage alternate "open" networking modules for people to use on their servers, without compromising security in the "official" closed networking module.

Anyway if people want an open source C/S GZDoom with a few little extra goodies so badly then get started on GZDoomCS already. Surely the fact that it would be an open source Skulltag clone will make people run to it and donate their time, money, and programming knowledge to it!

Heh, what would change here? Any people making these comments would still say the same exact things about Skulltag, while they would pay more attention to "GZDoomCS". Skulltag fans gain nothing either way. They would just lose fellow players to yet another engine, if anything.

Csonicgo said:

I'll say this- of course some of the program can be open- but the networking parts (that people can use to cheat with) should be closed.

It is common knowledge that, in order to reduce network traffic, all monster and projectile functions in Skulltag are intertwined with netcode. Torr devised a generic way to handle them, but it's not used because it uses more bandwidth than the specially tailored custom code that is used right now.

The upside of this approach is that it reduces lag. The downsides are that it makes bugfixing a longer task (for example, if a monster's movement code doesn't transmit an information that it actually should transmit, like the Z-pos, then the monster won't appear in the client where it should be) and that it makes the code much, much less modular than it could be -- and notably, closing "just the networking parts" would be absolutely impractical.

In fact, it would be about the same thing as saying "look at the GZDoom source code -- Skulltag's render.cpp file is the same"

Graf has often ranted about ST's network code, arguing that this approach was a maintenance nightmare. Carn, however, favors this inelegant design because it yields higher performances and in his opinion faster netcode is worth the extra work.

Anyway, the point is that keeping the netcode closed while opening the rest consists pretty much in keeping all of Skulltag's closed. You can be sure that all of the netcode-free parts of ST are already open-sourced and found in GZDoom's source...

Gez said:
Anyway, the point is that keeping the netcode closed while opening the rest consists pretty much in keeping all of Skulltag's closed.

Balanced against a release of most of the source plus what Graf Zahl says about maintenance, the benefits of such an excuse seem slim and carry all the negative aspects we've discussed.

You can be sure that all of the netcode-free parts of ST are already open-sourced and found in GZDoom's source...

Which are useless to any people requiring sources, who need them to compile a working version, or to participate, judge, or contribute in their way. Saying much of the code is already available is more of an argument in favor of releasing what can safely be released, since it's mostly already known code, but can't be used unless truly released for Skulltag.

myk said:

What? An open source project can certainly have a development team hierarchy if the team desires it. This goes both ways anyway, and by closing things and making them more restrictive you get the same issue; shitty features implemented by a few hands, where few people can change things or revert any incorrect changes. With an open source scenario alternatives contributions are an option for strengthening the project, which can be taken or discarded as seen fit by the team.

Good point.

I can say for certain that ZDoom has benefitted greatly from opening the in-development source which can be considered similar to the situation described here.

Before there was a public SVN server users were restricted to the official releases and it took forever to iron out the bugs. A good example for this is version 2.0.90. It took 6 months to make and there was no external feedback whatsoever because no source was available - and after its release it took several months again to get to a stable version.

Now with the most current source publicly available bugs are mostly found immediately after they were made because many enthusiastic developers are getting the source themselves and compile it.

Case in point here: version 2.1.0. Although it took 1.5 years from the last official release the code had been thoroughly tested by many users at the time of release and there was no notable increase in bug reports afterward.

Of course with a closed system you'll never get this kind of feedback from the community.

AlexMax said:

the development team probably feels like the free publicity on the front page is worth the disdain they get from the community at large on the doomworld forums.

This isen't a news item but I know what you mean.

Graf has a great point, but it has advantages way beyond bug fixing. With a closed source program, you don't get near enough of the cool experimentation that can add unexpected nice additions to the program. Projects such as prBoom+, GZDoom, Eternity, CSDoom and many other projects would never have existed had the source to the parent program been closed.

And I agree with myk, what a lot of these projects seem to forget is that if the doom source hadn't been public, they would not have been able to code the projects in the first place. So closing previously-open source seems like it's taking the generosity of the parent source owners for granted.

myk said:

What? An open source project can certainly have a development team hierarchy if the team desires it. This goes both ways anyway, and by closing things and making them more restrictive you get the same issue; shitty features implemented by a few hands, where few people can change things or revert any incorrect changes. With an open source scenario alternatives contributions are an option for strengthening the project, which can be taken or discarded as seen fit by the team.

And because GZDoom and ZDoom are open source, that can be easily done with Skulltag. In fact I don't see it being uncommon for people to make certain things for ZDoom knowing they will probably end up in Skulltag if the feature is liked. Similar to one of ZDoom's latest features, SBARINFO. The idea was thought up by members of the ST community. Since the maker wanted to make it himself and knew he could, he did. And since it was a great feature and added to ZDoom, it was thus added to Skulltag.

myk said:

How is the ZDaemon team's inability to deal with cheats a factor here? Lot's of Skulltag's code is similar to code that's available. Man, were Skulltag more popular, I bet there'd be more Skulltag cheats to take care of. Besides, yes, any such people could indeed contribute fixes or suggest improvements to any code they could get a hand on.

There was a hack for ST called STHOOK that allowed people to see through walls. The reason for this was because of the fact that ZDoom was open source and the reason it was stopped was because it was fixed and the code that stopped it was not released. I DO NOT want to see this again, and since that hack was fixed there have been no others.
As for "people contributing hack fixes," this is unneeded. The 3 devs we have are capable of fixing issues like this and if someone from the communtiy thinks they can fix it then they can use the ZDoom/GZDoom source. As for why I used ZDaemon as a reference, it was just an example of how to deal with cheaters. They simply ban them and continue on with their lives. I REALLY would simply hate to see ST having to handle this the same way. To me its wrong because with range bans someone else can get caught that is innocent. It really is a very rare thing to ban people from the master server. And as for people suggesting imrpovements...its not that hard even with closed source. People suggest ways to improve the source every day, and if the idea is a good one the devs will use it.

myk said:

You criticize ZDaemon's problems due to opening the source, but then what do you think allowed it to grow into the most popualr online engine in the first place? A big deal of that was the community impetus given precisely by the availability of the source.

Thats true. But we don't live in a perfect world where multiplayer doom can be hack free. ZDaemon is a victom of this and that supports the whole "There are several advantages to open source, yet several harmful disadvantages too" thing that you and I both knew about before I mentioned it previously. ZDaemon used to be open source and it was working fine for them. Then someone had to go ruin the fun and hack it. Also the whole idea of "Open source = super community" doesn't seem to be working much anymore. If it was we'd see more people playing Odamex.

myk said:

Since a lot of the source is available anyway, cheat seekers can look at what's available, and then can generate cheats by backward engineering the binaries. But on closing the whole source the first part of the community to suffer is those who would contribute directly, and those who need more freedom to get the program running in the first place.

But the devs can make it super harder by closing the source! As for the community that would contribute, they can. And I'll tell them how gladly! By simply improving ZDoom and GZDoom. That really is the best way to contribute since if the improvements are accepted by Graf/Randy then that means they won't break compatability later. If something were implemented into JUST Skulltag, the devs run the risk of breaking a feature thats in ZDoom that needs to be in Skulltag.

myk said:

If you're going to refrain from releasing code, do so with what's essential for security, not the whole thing. Like I said above, that could even allow the team to encourage alternate "open" networking modules for people to use on their servers, without compromising security in the "official" closed networking module.

That for the most part is already happening with the ZDoom/GZDoom source being open. However while the community "open" network part does sound interesting, I don't see why it would be necessary since ST's netcode is already pretty great. ACS works almost prefectly on ST's netcode and several network leaks are fixed. Right now the only step would be to add unlagged to the netcode, which Carnevil said he can do in the future.

myk said:

Heh, what would change here? Any people making these comments would still say the same exact things about Skulltag, while they would pay more attention to "GZDoomCS". Skulltag fans gain nothing either way. They would just lose fellow players to yet another engine, if anything.

That was sarcasm. But if it did happen I don't think anyone would care about ST's source anymore since it was already recreated open source.

Vulture said:
That for the most part is already happening with the ZDoom/GZDoom source being open.

Note that only some aspects of that are happening, and no credit goes to the ST team for it, but for those who generously release the sources it uses. The point in releasing the actual ST source, or parts of it if a method where networking parts are left unrevealed for security purposes, is that people can grab the main code and work with it, adapt it, make mods, or whatever, to which they would apply the precompiled network module. Naturally, if the whole main source were released anyone could also offer an alternate open network module for it, which would be useful for anyone needing the extra freedom, in turn enhancing the community value and usability of the engine.

I REALLY would simply hate to see ST having to handle this the same way.

The reason ZDaemon handles it like that is not because the source was released in the past, since they could simply have modified the source more radically specifically to get rid of the cheats. They handle it by banning half the Internet because they're paranoid and can't handle all the work. ST might end up in a similar situation, if its user-base grows considerably and the team makes the decisions the ZDaemon team has been making. In any case, I don't think the ST user-base will grow too much, unless its team gives more incentive to participation and sharing.

Vulture said:

Also Risen3D seems pretty dead now that the source is open. I don't want to see Skulltag die because people gripe to the devs long enough to push them over the edge and release the source and leave just like Risen3D.

What the hell kind of argument is this? Risen3D was never alive to begin with.

Vulture said:

Thats true. But we don't live in a perfect world where multiplayer doom can be hack free. ZDaemon is a victom of this and that supports the whole "There are several advantages to open source, yet several harmful disadvantages too" thing that you and I both knew about before I mentioned it previously. ZDaemon used to be open source and it was working fine for them. Then someone had to go ruin the fun and hack it. Also the whole idea of "Open source = super community" doesn't seem to be working much anymore. If it was we'd see more people playing Odamex.

I want Starcraft (and Diablo 1 lol) to be 100% hack free but it has tons of hacks and it's closed source!

Also, if hackers release binaries from your GPLed source code and don't release the source you can have the GPL run after their assess.

and starting ZDaemon servers that advertise publicaly is like agreeing to a license agreement, you need to use the ZDaemon global ban list (which I circumvented and almost got banned lol).

Vulture said:

But the devs can make it super harder by closing the source! As for the community that would contribute, they can. And I'll tell them how gladly! By simply improving ZDoom and GZDoom. That really is the best way to contribute since if the improvements are accepted by Graf/Randy then that means they won't break compatability later. If something were implemented into JUST Skulltag, the devs run the risk of breaking a feature thats in ZDoom that needs to be in Skulltag.

Did you mean "If something were implemented into JUST Skulltag, the devs run the risk of breaking a feature thats in Skulltag that needs to be in ZDoom"?

And what devs, ZDoom's and/or Skulltag's?

It has been proven time and time again that whether the source is closed, or not, is one of the less, if not the LEAST important of the factors. People will hack regardless of whether the source is open or not, people will still exploit it.

But you know what? I'm not worried about "cheating". I'm worried about something else, that no one really talks about.

Intentional trojans/viruses. Remember the Zdaemon incident, where THE ZDAEMON ADMINISTRATION offered a "free aimbot" tool that deleted files from your computer?


At least with open source, you can't "hide" anything. Closed source is always a liiitle suspicious to me these days. Even professional software leaves me a little uneasy, especially since more and more programs have been caught "phoning home" with monitoring software. Windows Phones home, Apple iPhone phones home. Winamp phones home. those little cute game CDs your grandma buys from Wal-mart Phones home- and sometimes sends her advertisements and possibly spyware from those adverts, from legitimately bought software.

I'm taking a big risk to my security installing Skulltag. I'm only relying on the "trust" from the community and nothing else. I don't have anything else to prove to me that this program, and if I choose to run it on my linux PC, will be safe. Maybe there's doom2pro like code in there that I've yet to see in action. But how would I know? I can't see the source.

Before you say anything, Skulltag Administration, I am not saying you are evil people, or would do anything that damaging to your reputation and your userbase. I'm just using Skulltag as an example. Maybe if people knew what risks they take by installing skulltag, Zdaemon (or any software that is closed) they would think twice before installing something. It's just using your noggin!

Is it me, Or does everybody seem to have an issue with just one dam source port having its god damned source closed? I mean, what gain can you get from skulltags source code anyway? It’s just a god damned game. Play it or don't.
Do we need skulltags source code? is it in anyway a life threatening situation to have this "Must Have Code"? I fail to understand how skulltags source code is one of the most debated things in the doom community, and yet its updated through (G)ZDoom anyway.

GhostlyDeath said:

I want Starcraft (and Diablo 1 lol) to be 100% hack free but it has tons of hacks and it's closed source!

You'll be surprised how easy it is to hack closed source engines without the need of the code. Aim bots are a prime example to this.

GhostlyDeath said:

Did you mean "If something were implemented into JUST Skulltag, the devs run the risk of breaking a feature thats in Skulltag that needs to be in ZDoom"?

And what devs, ZDoom's and/or Skulltag's?

If something was implemented, it may conflict with zdooms code upon updating the SVN build. Then again, I remember something about Graf Zahl having access to skulltags source code... so in most cases, I doubt it would do any harm. Well it depends. My main guess is if you alter any of the general game logic, you run the risk of breaking compatibility between the two.

Edward850 said:

You'll be surprised how easy it is to hack closed source engines without the need of the code. Aim bots are a prime example to this.

Congratulations! I knew we could come to terms. We've finally agreed that It doesn't matter if the source is closed or not, exploits will continue to happen.

Csonicgo said:

Congratulations! I knew we could come to terms. We've finally agreed that It doesn't matter if the source is closed or not, exploits will continue to happen.

That being true, its harder to make hacks without knowing what the code is doing, or having the code to know that such a thing is even there. Some aim bots are impossible just because rendering is done differently, but then you can easily make aim bots via changing the source code.

It’s always harder to make hacks with a hex editor (Sometimes impossible). A good reason to keep online games with their source closed.

Edward850 said:
Is it me, Or does everybody seem to have an issue with just one dam source port having its god damned source closed? I mean, what gain can you get from skulltags source code anyway? It’s just a god damned game. Play it or don't.

The "gain" has been stated many times. But like you're saying, one tends not to play something if it becomes less useful, trustworthy or beneficial to one or one's view of the community, and on the other hand play it more when it's better or more suitable. Thus people argue for its improvement, maybe because they see some value in it, but see one or another problem as things stand (as far as how useful and worthy it can be and all that). If any ST people can't stand free discussion of the engine's development here, they shouldn't come here.

If something was implemented, it may conflict with zdooms code upon updating the SVN build.

Yeah, but in relation to why he brought that up, that applies to any change made to it, the source being available to one person or an unlimited number. If the source or part of were available it wouldn't mean that anyone could come and add just anything to the Skulltag downloadable from the Skulltag site. They'd just be making some optional mod and would be responsible for it being compatible with anything else, of updating it, or whatnot, unless the main team decided to (with care for compatibility and any other desired standards) add those very changes to the main Skulltag build. A mod could come along and become as popular as or more than Skulltag itself, sure, but that can happen with any engine, and is usually considered a good thing by competent developers.