Eternal Doom Returns from Oblivion

I enjoyed it so far. I'm on map 27 now, which is a monstrosity (but in a good way, heh). I do have a few minor complaints though, mostly about the enemies.

Those railgun arachnotrons shoot waaaay too fast. Maybe cut the attacks down to just a single shot.

The shielded enemies take too long to kill except with the rocket launcher. I noticed that they defend themselves the instant they take damage, which means not all of the shotgun pellets will hit them (you'll see a blood puff or two and a bunch of bullet puffs). I have nothing against the monsters themselves, but a delay there would really help out here.

Those red things (dragon familiars?) really shouldn't shoot from so far away if their flames aren't going to reach all the way.

You may want to add an autosave at the end of that beginning text. Either that or allow them to move during that time.

Ichor said:

The shielded enemies take too long to kill except with the rocket launcher. I noticed that they defend themselves the instant they take damage, which means not all of the shotgun pellets will hit them (you'll see a blood puff or two and a bunch of bullet puffs). I have nothing against the monsters themselves, but a delay there would really help out here.

That happens when one doesn't bother to update one's resources. The bug was fixed long ago and the current MRW's versions work as intended.

Mordeth said:

Like some posters before me, I'm also stuck in the first hub. Typically for TeamTNT releases, everything in sight is killed and I'm now left to wander aimlessly through emptied rooms in search for the switch or door I apparantly must have missed.

Annoyed beyond normal human comprehension by the aforementioned switchhunt....

In the Crypts (Map08) the rune-switch is on the bridge in the circular outdoor area near the start. There are no other switches that you need to find. In Schloss Adler (Map09) the rune switch is in the circular open area with the moat. You need the yellow key to enter this area. There are no other switches that you need to find. In Daemon's Sanctuary (Map10) the rune-switch is in the large cathedral. There are no other switches that you need to find. In 2 of the 3 maps there is a more-or-less direct path to each rune-switch. In one of the maps you need the yellow key, but from there it's a direct path to the rune-switch. Only one key in 3 maps and one switch in each of three maps - hardly a "switch-hunt" in the traditional sense. The maps even give you a message if you try to leave any map without finding the rune-switch. I can't see how I could have made it simpler without simply having the rune-switch at the start of each map.

Mordeth said:

Some nitpicking: railgun spamming archnatrons, invisible monsters or always shotblocking monsters are just a bad design idea; and please space out the random ambient sounds so I don't have to hear them repeat every 4 seconds.

Comment on ambient sound has been duly noted. About the invisible monsters, please indicate where this has been used. I know they were not used in Maps08-10, and I'm pretty sure they were used sparingly (if at all) in the other maps.

Graf Zahl said:

That happens when one doesn't bother to update one's resources. The bug was fixed long ago and the current MRW's versions work as intended.

Oops. Duly noted, and will be fixed for next release (if any).

Teaser or not, I think you should at least fix the MAPINFO so that the game starts automatically at MAP08.

Graf Zahl said:

Teaser or not, I think you should at least fix the MAPINFO so that the game starts automatically at MAP08.

Duly noted. Ty has actually suggested a front-end wad that will allow the player to warp to any of the maps in the main wad (the restrictions on warping to Maps09 and 10 notwithstanding). This front-end, however, will likely only be a part of a wider release (if any).

Holy crap, this is a great mapset. I haven't seen something this well done using hubs since rtc.

ReX said:
And no, "unplayable crap" did not get the message through for me, nor (seemingly) for several others.

Sure helps people who know and understand Belial's perspective, and there are many more than you seem to think, determine whether the levels may be worth bothering with (or where to put them in the priority list, if so). Besides, the comment was in reply to someone else, not even direct input for you, where the qualities of suckiness were described (by entryway, and Belial felt they applied more to those levels instead of Espi's). And if you're going to flame people for negative expressions, might as well thank them for positive ones (such as the ones he made on the other thread).

You call people "assholes", but then you might want to reread your own posts, to see if you're any better.

ReX said:

I'd be interested in seeing your demo. You can PM me or email me at gurkha_boy AT yahoo.com.

Unfortunately GZDoom's demo recording system is completely broken :( I do not know why it is still supported officially. I just checked my demo and it desyncs after first (and last) death. Also I know gzdoom demos desynch if screensaver appears. It is one of two reasons why I do not like zdoom wads. The second is incompatibility from one version to another. Do you hope your wad will work tomorrow? In a month? After half a year?

myk said:

by entryway, and Belial felt they applied more to those levels instead of Espi's[

I have made a mistake. I thought that the 11th level was made by Espi. Permanently respawned monsters bother me a little, but perfect geometry is worth the effort

Shaviro said:
Good playing skills? What the?

To state what you might already know, a keen mind on the balance of monsters, item placement, and a layout's worth as a playing field coupled with enough (dexterity-based) ease to handle maps can provide a quick and well-formed perspective regarding the matter. Naturally, good skills imply thorough knowledge of the behavior of the game in action and what a player can do in it, which is necessary to judge playablitiy.

myk said:

Sure helps people who know and understand Belial's perspective, and there are many more than you seem to think, determine whether the levels may be worth bothering with (or where to put them in the priority list, if so). Besides, the comment was in reply to someone else, not even direct input for you, where the qualities of suckiness were described (by entryway, and Belial felt they applied more to those levels instead of Espi's). And if you're going to flame people for negative expressions, might as well thank them for positive ones (such as the ones he made on the other thread).

You call people "assholes", but then you might want to reread your own posts, to see if you're any better.

Oh, here we go again. Myk, has anyone ever told you you're a pompous wind-bag that loves the sound of his own voice (or the look of his own writing) and that loves to argue for the sake of arguing? However, just to humor you I'll argue back. First, most reasonable people will agree that the phrase "Unplayable crap if you value your time" is unhelpful at best, and rude and churlish at worst. Second, most reasonable people would also agree that a response of "Everybody's a fucking critic" would be an appropriate sarcastic rejoinder. Third, it seems that you are among the minority that believes the target of an insulting remark ought to suck it up and seek the sage advice of the insulter. [Great Master! Pray tell me where I went amiss, all the while please continue whacking the shit out of me with your bamboo cane! Actually, just whack the shit out of me and don't even tell me how to improve. It would be a great honor.] Fourth, Chris Couleur is one of the leading mappers in the DooM community, and I believe that most DooM players would disagree with an assessment that labels his maps "unplayable crap". Fifth, I agree that everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, and if they don't like something they can say as much, even if it's in an offensive manner so long as it isn't slanderous or libelous. By the same token someone else can use sarcasm to respond, and even tell the first party to shut the fuck up (which, incidentally, I didn't do - that was you putting words into my mouth). Sixth, according to you Belial's opinions are tantamount to law, and all must bow down before the word of the Almighty [OK, OK, I overdid it on this last point. But you get the idea.] See where I'm going with this Myk?

To sum up, Belial said something that I considered offensive. I responded in a sarcastic manner. End of story. Lighten up; you may live longer if you take your head out of your ass once in a while.

myk said:

not even direct input for you...

Makes no difference if he was addressing the Pope. He called it like he saw it, and I called it like I saw it.

myk said:

You call people "assholes", but then you might want to reread your own posts, to see if you're any better.

I didn't call anyone specific an asshole. I said that people who offer unconsidered opinions are sometimes assholes.

myk said:

And if you're going to flame people for negative expressions, might as well thank them for positive ones (such as the ones he made on the other thread).

And by the definition of Myk, the vocabulary guru, a somewhat caustic remark to someone who makes a habit of making caustic remarks is "flaming"? If you want flaming read the part I wrote a couple of paragraphs up, where I asked you to get your head out of your ass. As for his positive remarks, he said nothing different there than he did here. To wit: "For a short review, Espi's map is totally absolutely unbelievably awesome, Rex's hub is k and Chris' maps are not worth playing if you're not a fan of ED."

Fine, if it'll make you happy I'll say it: Belial, I kiss the ground on which you walk for praising Espi's map and for not trashing my maps. Oh, and my most humble apologies for associating myself with the "unplayable crap" that is Maps11-13. You are truly wise, oh Great Sifu!

I do have to agree here, that Belial's post in response to entryway was hardly indicative of how to improve the levels in question.

I don't think Belial liked previous Eternal Doom installments, as Chris Couleur's maps are more in the original Eternal Doom series' style than the others.

Well, tastes are tastes, just like I'm not a big fan of what I would "nostalgia" mapping style which flagbearer would be Wonderful Doom.

ReX said:
Chris Couleur is one of the leading mappers in the DooM community, and I believe that most DooM players would disagree with an assessment that labels his maps "unplayable crap".

The quality of maps is judged by "popular opinion"? As far as I'm concerned, they are judged individually, and there's nothing holy about Eternal Doom nor Chris as a mapper. I don't see how what we think most players think plays in here, unless we need to "join the masses" every time we judge.

(which, incidentally, I didn't do - that was you putting words into my mouth).

You needn't take it that way, the words are mine, but my point is that when checking up on new releases I value input from players or reviewers I feel are insightful and I can understand (at least for preliminary input). In retrospect perhaps I should have just replied to Lüt, since it was his comment and that he applied a title that moved me to post. I agree you have every right to defend your project and your fellow mappers, I merely added something similar from the other side here (from the playing/wad-trying perspective).

He called it like he saw it, and I called it like I saw it.

Sure, and so did I, in turn. We did overextend the argument/differences somewhat here, but I don't think any harm will come of it. At least as far as I'm concerned, since that's also up to you and as you implied above, I can't speak for you.

If you want flaming read the part I wrote a couple of paragraphs up, where I asked you to get your head out of your ass.

Yeah, that was cute, to flame someone to "lighten up". Trust me, though, my temper is pretty light.

I'm looking forward to trying the mod (or parts, heh, but we'll see), yet with the size, time constraints, and bug reports, I hesitate. Hopefully you guys will have a new release sooner or later. Maybe incorporating some of the gameplay advice above as well as fixes.

myk said:

The quality of maps is judged by "popular opinion"? As far as I'm concerned, they are judged individually, and there's nothing holy about Eternal Doom nor Chris as a mapper. I don't see how what we think most players think plays in here, unless we need to "join the masses" every time we judge.

I agree with what you said. However, by the same token, the opinion of Belial or anyone else does not automatically provide an accurate rating of any map. More so if the opinion is simply flung out without anything to substantiate it. That, more than anything else, was what I was objecting to. If you go through my history of posts you will see that I take very little personally, even critiques of my own work. However, I have (and always will) have a problem with "virtual bullies" who throw their weight around.

I agree you have every right to defend your project and your fellow mappers, I merely added something similar from the other side here (from the playing/wad-trying perspective).

Actually, I was not trying to defend Chris at all. (He's more than capable of doing it himself.) I was simply expressing myself as follows: "Everybody's a fucking critic", i.e., it's easy to tear someone down without providing constructive suggestions for improvement. [And of course, Belial has no obligation to be constructive. And I in turn don't have any obligation to respect his opinion. That's all my comment was saying.]

We did overextend the argument/differences somewhat here, but I don't think any harm will come of it. At least as far as I'm concerned, since that's also up to you and as you implied above, I can't speak for you.

No harm, no foul. I'm too long in the tooth [and some might say too much of an asshole ;)] to hold a grudge.

I'm looking forward to trying the mod (or parts, heh, but we'll see), yet with the size, time constraints, and bug reports, I hesitate. Hopefully you guys will have a new release sooner or later. Maybe incorporating some of the gameplay advice above as well as fixes.

Actually, with the exception of the morphing bats/dragon familiars/imp warlords, I don't believe there are any bugs. [And even the morphing problem is only a feature of the ZDooM SVN, not v2.1.7, which is the official release.] As for everything else - lack of music, lack of hi-res TITLEPIC, messages that can't be skipped (guilty as charged), lack of game beginning on Map08, too-frequent ambient sounds, etc. - these are annoyances more than anything else. They do not affect the ability to fully play (and, I believe, enjoy) these maps.

Hm, I think my game might be bugged :/ Pushed all 3 runic switches, but it still claims I haven't. I went back to all 3 locations but the switches cannot be pushed again. During play i died after pulling the 2nd switch (the one on the bridge thing) and restored from an automatic savepoint during a levelswitch before that 2nd runic switch.

ReX said:

(and, I believe, enjoy)

I did enjoy these maps. In fact, I have replayed quite a few bits over again already.

However, although I believe that gameplay is very important, even if a person doesn't enjoy playing these maps, I think that a no-monsters tour of them just to admire the skill that went into making some of the areas in these maps would be a worthwhile exercise for anyone. I don't think there was anything where I stopped and thought "how the hell did they do that" but that's even more amazing in some ways. ie, a lot of what was done was actually fairly standard mapping techniques but done to a particularly high standard and in ways and combinations that just worked so well.

People pay attention to what Belial says?

Too much drama

Scuba: Hey, what took you so long?

ReX said:

What did you find "fundamentally flawed" in the gameplay? Were there elements of gameplay that worked for you? Did you like the architecture and texturing (your reply implies that but does not expressly say so)? Aside from architecture and texturing were you at all impressed with the map design (i.e., connectivity and complexity of the maps)? Was there anything else about the maps that you liked?

The thing is, I don't really care about these maps so I'm not going to try breaking down what I think about several hour long maps when I hardly have time to do what I should be doing for Deus Vult 2.

In short, the monster spawning is a ridiculous idea the way it's executed now, with monsters appearing in seemingly random places away from the player or even in places where they are AFAICT impossible to kill like some cacos in map11. Complexity is a word that could be used for Espi's map, for these maziness seems more appropriate. There's no real connectivity in map11, just a bunch of hallways and silent teleporters that try to fake it but most of the time fail to shorten the travel time between map sections which is what they should be doing. Some trademark ZDoom mistakes like dormant monsters that can be reached before they wake up are also present.

TBH map11 is the only one I've played from start to end, after that the other two were just too much and bored me to death about halfway through in both cases.

Edit: And speaking of DV2, too bad it hasn't been released yet, the Vrack4 map would've been a perfect example of how complexity and connectivity should come together.

Mordeth said:

Hm, I think my game might be bugged :/ Pushed all 3 runic switches, but it still claims I haven't. I went back to all 3 locations but the switches cannot be pushed again. During play i died after pulling the 2nd switch (the one on the bridge thing) and restored from an automatic savepoint during a levelswitch before that 2nd runic switch.

It's a shame that you're having this problem. In all our play-testing we did not encounter anything similar, and I went back into the scripts to see if I had messed anything up but found nothing. Finally, I did a run-through of the entire hub in god mode (to speed up the process) and tested the switches, and they all work fine.

I'm not a scripting guru, but perhaps someone with those skills can look through my scripts to see if there's an explanation for this particular snafu. Or a ZDooM guru may be able to provide an alternative explanation.

To help you proceed perhaps there's a way to run just the one script in Map08 from the console (instead of puking the entire set of scripts) so that you can enter the Chamber of Eternal Rest and get the security access code from Lt. Carter to disable the laser barrier. Failing that you can NOCLIP into the Chamber, remove NOCLIP to pick up the stuff there (including the "code"), then complete the rest of the hub. That's practically the last bit anyway.

Enjay said:

I don't think there was anything where I stopped and thought "how the hell did they do that" but that's even more amazing in some ways. ie, a lot of what was done was actually fairly standard mapping techniques but done to a particularly high standard and in ways and combinations that just worked so well.

Curiously, when I played Espi's map a year or so ago, I actually went "Woah! How did he do that?" I'm referring, of course, to his staggeringly clever use of stacked sectors. Plus his masterful use of textures and the hauntingly beautiful landscape. Map design was not too shabby either.

With Chris' maps I went "Woah! How the heck could he keep all of the elements of map design straight - maps so massive and non-linear, but which are seldom confusing." Plus his architectural style is quite marvellous.

Belial said:

In short, the monster spawning is a ridiculous idea the way it's executed now, with monsters appearing in seemingly random places away from the player or even in places where they are AFAICT impossible to kill like some cacos in map11. Complexity is a word that could be used for Espi's map, for these maziness seems more appropriate. There's no real connectivity in map11, just a bunch of hallways and silent teleporters that try to fake it but most of the time fail to shorten the travel time between map sections which is what they should be doing. Some trademark ZDoom mistakes like dormant monsters that can be reached before they wake up are also present.

Fair enough. I asked for your opinion, and I got it. I concur with you on a couple of your points (re-spawning cacos in Map11, dormant monsters), but on others it's a matter of different strokes for different folks. For my part I enjoyed all 3 of Chris' maps. But then again I love vanilla ice-cream and you probably don't. So it boils down to this: You have your opinion and I have mine, and in this regard (likely) ne'er the twain shall meet. Thank you, nevertheless. [No sarcasm intended.]

For the record, I am not given to ranting. But dismissive comments tend to make me reach for my gun. Again, how I feel is not likely to make anyone change his/her attitude about providing constructive criticism. But then I reserve the right to bring out my switch-blade, don't I? Metaphorically speaking, of course. Heh.

ReX said:

Curiously, when I played Espi's map a year or so ago, I actually went "Woah! How did he do that?" I'm referring, of course, to his staggeringly clever use of stacked sectors. Plus his masterful use of textures and the hauntingly beautiful landscape. Map design was not too shabby either.

Pre-KDiZD, I may have also been mystified by the use of stacked sectors and some of the other tricks. I agree entirely about the hauntingly beautiful landscape. I think I actually properly gasped when I saw that. It's perfect. And so extensive. And so real and natural in an obvious that it's not real way, if you know what I mean. Even inside, the little details like how 2 floors at slightly different heights in the castle are joined by a simple combination of 3 slopes under some archways makes the transition very smooth and better than you see most of the time. I can look at that and it's very obvious what he did, but that makes it no less marvelous and the fact that the techniques are used so extensively, so consistently and beautifully is the really amazing thing.

ReX said:

With Chris' maps I went "Woah! How the heck could he keep all of the elements of map design straight - maps so massive and non-linear, but which are seldom confusing." Plus his architectural style is quite marvellous.

Absolutely. I remember coming around a corner and this amazing building was just towering up in front of me with believable archways and a powerful cathedral like presence. Stunning. Again, everywhere you look there is something to marvel at. As I said, I don't think any individual technique mystified me, but its the adept use of the techniques that really work so well.

And the maps by that other guy, whassisname, aren't exactly shabby either. Characteristic powerful architecture with big circular structures where most mappers only dare to use rectangles, some beautiful outdoor areas and the creepiness and detail in the crypts... Not an appearance thing, but I actually really enjoyed the connectivity and logic in your hub. I just found it a very appealing section of the project to play.



Right from the start area I knew it was going to be a good looking map set and the custom resources are used intelligently and well throughout too.

I don't want to dwell too much on appearance because how much fun they are to play is very important. However, like I said, even a person doesn't like playing them (and I do) there is something to be gained simply by viewing the levels. I think the appearance of them alone is one of the high points of Doom mapping.

The Yellow key one was the first one I got actually, I think I passed by the others because I played thru multiple maps. THe yellow key moat area rune switch had my first super-caco, but the bridge in the crypts is the area where I fought multiple super-cacos.

I went thru that cathedral too but I'll go back there! :)

CodenniumRed said:

The Yellow key one was the first one I got actually, I think I passed by the others because I played thru multiple maps. THe yellow key moat area rune switch had my first super-caco, but the bridge in the crypts is the area where I fought multiple super-cacos.

I went thru that cathedral too but I'll go back there! :)

In the Crypts you must have found the secrets that lead to the BFG, if you were assaulted by multiple "super-cacos" (I believe they're called RealAbstractPain, and yes they can be pains in the ass). Have you been up on that bridge?

In the cathedral in Daemon's Sanctuary, did you reach the ammo cache all the way in the back? The rune switch is difficult to miss.

I spent a bunch of time setting up a proper 32-bit build environment on my 64-bit Ubuntu in order to compile zdoom only to be totally disappointed by this wad. Oh well.

exp(x) said:

I spent a bunch of time setting up a proper 32-bit build environment on my 64-bit Ubuntu in order to compile zdoom only to be totally disappointed by this wad. Oh well.

You must not have played map 27.

Ichor said:

You must not have played map 27.

Actually, I warped specifically to that map because of all the praise I had read here. The bland texturing of the narrow hallways and the switch hunting really put me off. Maybe I didn't give it enough of a chance, but I really wasn't compelled to.

exp(x) said:

Actually, I warped specifically to that map because of all the praise I had read here. The bland texturing of the narrow hallways and the switch hunting really put me off. Maybe I didn't give it enough of a chance, but I really wasn't compelled to.

Sometimes you simply need to revel in things for being what they are.

Personally, I just switch off monsters, warp to 27, put on the Da Vinci Code soundtrack (track 2 is the perfect track to kick the map off with), and enjoy the tour.

Though, as far as -nomonsters goes, I'm sure that's partially due to me spending over a year playing ever-progressing versions of the map from where it began a single outdoor scene with a river and 3 block piles up to its current and final evolution in which monsters were the last thing added. Still, I think it would have been better without monsters (or perhaps a mere few for sudden unexpected surprises) and instead been turned into an adventure/mystery kind of exploration like Myst. It certainly had the atmosphere quotient.