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xit-vono

undone challenges in compet-n

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Now that pa26 is complete, I have decided to take a look at some undone challenges. Originally posted at compet-n

Pacifist:
# Ultimate DOOM E2M8: Unless you get lost souls to freeze the cyberdemon or some other weirdness, I think it's safe to assume this one is not possible.
# Ultimate DOOM E4M6: Same problem here, cacos are not even close to being able to kill the cyberdemon (unless they freeze it - but I haven't seen that happen yet).
# DOOM2 MAP02: There's very little space to move and dodge around (especially down near the blue key). Still, recent tool-assisted runs showed some hope - I certainly wouldn't mark this as impossible.
# DOOM2 MAP07: I can't think of any way to do this really.
# DOOM2 MAP17: This map is pure hell all the way through, and the hardest part being at the exit. Certainly more unlikely than MAP02, IMHO.
# DOOM2 MAP26: If someone manages to get past the imps and reach the red key, and do it reliably - the rest isn't that hard at all really. But I guess it takes quite extraordinary luck to make it to the red key and back.
# DOOM2 MAP29: I think my comments for MAP17 apply here as well. Maybe this one is has a bit more hope.
# DOOM2 MAP30: I don't know what to say. Get archies to attack Romero? Yeah, right.

Tyson:
# Ultimare DOOM E2M8: This one is a mind game. Patrick Martin once killed 5 barons on E4M1 without berserk and not much infighting (Remember?). Yes, a cyberdemon is tougher than 4 barons, but there's quite some health around (and there are 50 "free" pistol shots).
# Ultimate DOOM E4M6: This one is nearly the same problem as Pacifist, with the added difficulty of having to kill everyone else as well. The invul doesn't last long either. I'd say very unlikely.
# Ultimate DOOM E4M7: I actually have some experience on this as I completed it in a tool-assisted run (see the page when it gets posted). Not even two invuls last long enough to kill a full-health cyberdemon when he's attacking you. The bullets have to be preserved to kill a baron, two cacos and three imps. But maybe there is a way with the cyber fight I haven't thought of, who knows?
# DOOM2 MAP30: Pistol? Fists?

Well, so far the only ones left are pa02, pa17, pa30, and ty30.
Adam's comments about pa02 are right on, and I think he overestimated the difficulty of pa26 and pa29. As for pa30 and ty30, I will say that these seem to be impossible. For pa17, conventional wisdom says it should be impossible, but perhaps it's worth looking at.

Now let's talk about final doom:

Nightmare:
tn09: Stx-Vile says it's possible, and I believe him. It should be very difficult.

Nightmare secrets:
es02: I'm guessing this one can be done, but will require a good deal of luck.
es08: Silly Stx-Vile busted his ass to complete this one but forgot the chainsaw secret :) If someone can repeat his demo, then it should be nightmare secrets as well.
es09: I suppose this should be a little harder than tn09?

Pacifist:
ep05, ep06, ep09: I think not
ep08: I haven't looked at this one seriously. I'm guessing it will turn out to be too hard.
ep10, ep14: I think these are worth looking at and may be doable(although very difficult).
ep25: I'm not really sure what this one would be like.
ep26: I can't see any way to get through all those pigs.
ep28: The hard part here would be to get the red key. It's possible to pass the mancubus with some luck. I haven't considered the blue key areas though which might turn out to be too hard.
pp07: I don't see this one being done. There's just not enough stuff to kill every mancubus.
pp30: Maybe it's possible to get the cybie to shoot the boss brain, but can you do it reliably?

Tyson: Well I won't bother to list them all, but some of them are clearly possible and some may turn out to be impossible. Other categories like movies and -respawn will not be talked about in this post.

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pa07 has been done already by Vile with a MEGA INSANE RJ.

Download pa07-041.zip and marvel! ;)

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Mr.TF said:

pa07 has been done already by Vile with a MEGA INSANE RJ.

Download pa07-041.zip and marvel! ;)

That's why he said only pa02, pa17, pa30, and ty30 are left.

I'm curious about a TAS pa30, though. How feasible would it be to set up a grid computing project like SETI@home or Folding@home to just chug through runs? Obviously you wouldn't want it to be totally random since the run from the start to the activated lift is pretty standard, and there should be some guidance towards a strategy. Maybe a more reasonable starting point would be to see if a run could be generated that damages the boss brain just once.

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Regarding tn09, it probably would have been easier to try with sound... thing is, I've gotten to the blue key several times and I don't think I'm the only one, if I remember right. The rest of the level is not much more difficult than the start, so I believe it's possible. After the halfway mark, though, it becomes more difficult to predict where the bullets will be coming from since a sarge or commando could pop up just about anywhere. I believe es09 would be quite a bit worse (if I remember right) since most secrets are not very beneficial at all.

About pp07... I've been able to get the chaingunner to kill about two mancubi before, so it's theoretically possible to have him take out all of them. Doing so unassisted would take a lot of patience, though. PP30, I managed to get the cyber to hit the brain on a total fluke. I was messing around with getting archies to blast me up to the brain's level, since there's a very small ledge to stand on... I wouldn't bet on that one being too replicable unassisted either, though.

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exp(x) said:

That's why he said only pa02, pa17, pa30, and ty30 are left.


Sorry, I was inattentive, did't saw it.

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I have an idea to finish pa07 much faster. Would it be possible to earn enough acceleration with a monster glide (like e2m7, lv05) on the mancubi? In this way you wouldn't have to collect the RL and MS. I don't know too much about this type of tricks, so tell me if my theory is wrong.

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exp(x) said:

That's why he said only pa02, pa17, pa30, and ty30 are left.


Aren't p4m6 and p2m8 left too?

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Mr.TF said:

I have an idea to finish pa07 much faster. Would it be possible to earn enough acceleration with a monster glide (like e2m7, lv05) on the mancubi? In this way you wouldn't have to collect the RL and MS. I don't know too much about this type of tricks, so tell me if my theory is wrong.


If I recall correctly, in theory you don't even need a boost. You need to have the exact right speed on the exact right coordinate going the exact right direction. I think Vile used the rocket launcher just to make it easier?

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Yeah, obviously p2m8 and p4m6 are still undone. I just did an ep10 which was a good challenge. Btw, about pp30, maybe you can have cybie attacked by a caco or skull, then he will fire 3 rockets, the first kills the monster and the next 2 hit the brain?

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Btw, I checked out ep28 and I got the red key on the first try by using pigs to kill mancubus. I think that getting the blue key will be possible but difficult. I will probably try it sometime. Also if you look at my ep14 tas demo you can see it looks possible, and I believe it to be so. I believe Vincent has tried it so maybe he can comment on it.

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emailking said:

If I recall correctly, in theory you don't even need a boost. You need to have the exact right speed on the exact right coordinate going the exact right direction. I think Vile used the rocket launcher just to make it easier?


Yes ... In theory :) Personally I can't do it "even" with RL, despite I have done all other RJs in doom2. I think monsterglide wouldn't help you as much as the RL, so that's why I ask about the possibilities.

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emailking said:

If I recall correctly, in theory you don't even need a boost. You need to have the exact right speed on the exact right coordinate going the exact right direction. I think Vile used the rocket launcher just to make it easier?


Yeah... the premise of Dashiva's research into the exact physics of the situation was that not only did the run to the ledge have to be executed perfectly, but the engine had to miscalculate and allow for a sort of "levitation" effect at the time you make the run. The RJ was done because, honestly, I didn't have the patience at the time to perform magic... it just gave me a margin for error so that pa07 could finally be completed. :)

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Just for fun, I tried to devise a way to finish one of these challenges on Doom 2 map 30. Here's the best ideas I had:

Technique one - get about 10 archviles to attack you simultaneously so that you can climb up the Icon of Sin's face (on the 2 pixel-wide ledges that are on 128 pixel-high steps). You would need to be playing a difficulty that has an invulnerability sphere, of course. Unfortunately, even though you can stand at the brain hole, the hole is only 32 map units high and the angle is such so that you can't hit Romero with a pistol shot. With the same angle difficulty, it's even less likely that a guided monster projectile could hit Romero. So, this idea is a bust.

Technique two - somehow get pain elementals to die while moving extremely quickly towards the brain hole - so that their corpses coast through the hole before exploding. This could possibly release a lost soul in Romero's room that flies in Romero's direction, damaging him once. That soul would then have to be killed so that this trick could be used again, but pistol shots and monster projectiles from outside could be capable of reaching it.

Technique three - essentially technique two, but the lost soul enters Romero's room in another way: With the nightmare respawning bug on Map 30, get huge quantities of monsters to spawn outside of the level. From the inside of the room, get a pain elemental to die next to a wall, hopefully releasing a lost soul outside of the level area. This lost soul should collide with a respawned monster, starting an infight. Now, with luck, this infight will cause a pain elemental to die right next to Romero's room. This has a chance of releasing a lost soul into Romero's room that will hit and damage him once. Then, you have to clear that lost soul out of Romero's room with monster projectiles or pistol fire. Repeat.

Possible? I think so!

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Pacifist and tyson are both UV mode only. So I think idea 3 is out, at least as far as an official point-scoring compet-n demo goes.

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Creaphis said:

Technique one - get about 10 archviles to attack you simultaneously so that you can climb up the Icon of Sin's face (on the 2 pixel-wide ledges that are on 128 pixel-high steps). You would need to be playing a difficulty that has an invulnerability sphere, of course. Unfortunately, even though you can stand at the brain hole, the hole is only 32 map units high and the angle is such so that you can't hit Romero with a pistol shot. With the same angle difficulty, it's even less likely that a guided monster projectile could hit Romero. So, this idea is a bust.


In Doom II Legacy I was able to archijump onto these ledges from the raising platform. I don't know that is it possible in doom2.exe v1.9, because it is a very different port.

Shooting in the brain with SSG was also working :).

My new idea: get attacked by a revenant, dodge and perhaps the rockets will hit romero.

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ep28 is done. I would say that ep10, ep28 and pa26 are all of similar difficulty. Next I may look at some maps like map08, map14, or map25 or do a tyson for map28.

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here's my progress report: I have been trying pa02, ep14 and ep25. On pa02 I got this demo out of nowhere. This is the first time I managed to get the armor, and doing so with 70 health was pretty sweet. I made it into the blue key room, got a few infights and then got killed. On ep14 I haven't made much progress, but I figured out that it's possible to take the shortcut back to the exit. I had assumed that doing so would require crushing the chainer which may not be a proper pacifist demo. In fact there's enough room to just move around him. Even so it takes some luck and enough health to get it to work, and there may be gunners blocking waiting for you outside. For ep25 I found it's quite possible and have a demo where I was able to get the red key safely. My strategy is to go for the yellow key, and then the megasphere, after which things get a little easier. This map is all about wiggling past monsters, and you must pass 5 shotgunners and 6 skulls this way.

pa02c.zip

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Btw, on es09, there's only 2 problem secret areas. The first is a berzerk secret near the blue key, and the second is the rocket launcher secret as well as the low spot in the previous room. I recommend that anyone trying tn09 go for all the secrets.

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ep28 and ep25 are both great demos and look like they took a lot of patience. Great accomplishments!

Looks like you need a lot of blue moons to come together to get through PA02 unassisted. That blue key room looks like the hardest part too. But anyway great job getting that far. I hope you get it.

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ep14 is done! now only 5,6,8,9, and 26 remain. I think all of these will remain undone, although perhaps 8 has the most hope. When I tried it I kept getting killed in the beginning, but maybe once you get past there things get easier. I may try a TAS sometime to find out.

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