Master Levels 2

Good Idea? Bad Idea?

I'm not sure how many of you guys have played the Master Levels, hopefully a lot, but I kinda enjoyed that mapset. I wasn't very fond of it being a collection of seperate wads though, but when played in order, it's a blast.

I think the coolest thing about the Master Levels is that it has a very "Official" feeling. When I was playing it, I kinda felt like the wad was just about the most difficult official doom maps I could expect to see (before Doom64 of course).

The Master Levels had a pretty consistent theme. Many of the maps were simply brown brick, bronze, and metal textures. There are few marble themed maps slipped in between.

Is anyone into this?

I strongly enjoyed Sverre Andre Kvernmo's levels. The rest are more average in terms of challenge and quality.

The consistency in mapping themes could be due to the fact that only a few mappers are responsible for all of the maps, and that these wads stick entirely to the stock Doom 2 resources.

Are you suggesting some sort of Master Levels 2 community project? What would that involve?

I never played the master levels. Doom2 stock textures == shit

So youre planning an simple remake project, or something more like KDiZD with all sorts of zdoom tricks.

I think the idea is an good one.

I'd say it's pointless. There's tons of (even old) levels in /idgames that are much, much better than the Master levels, even some with mostly the same theme.

Not exactly like a KDiZD thing, more like a wanna-be Plutonia 2, except instead of being Plutonia, It would look like the Master Levels.

Granted several of the maps are pretty plain and probably shouldn't have been in the package at all, but I still think there is a sort of atmosphere hidden in it. I think the map names had a lot to contribute to it mostly.

I couldn't disagree more that the doom 2 stock textures are shit. I know they can be manipulated efficiently to always look good. It's just that there are countless failures that use stock doom 2 textures that stick to memory. I like to look beyond it. I think Espi's map in the latest /newstuff is an excellent example of using stock textures and making it look cool.

Master Levels seemed a lot like an addon pack to Doom 2, and I don't think anyone would disagree on a Doom 2 remake project, if it wasn't already a hackneyed unoriginal idea.

There's no possible set of new maps that we could make where players would think, "Hey, this is just like the master levels! Cool!" as opposed to them thinking it's just another set of Doom 2 maps, so your project idea is more or less impossible. The maps really aren't worth commemorating in a ZDiZD way either, as their architecture isn't familiar to the average Doomer and the maps aren't particularly respected overall.

I also disagree that the Master Levels have "a sort of atmosphere hidden in them." Sverre's levels felt atmospheric to me, partly because of the stories he wrote for them, but that's the atmosphere of Sverre's levels, not the atmosphere of the Master Levels. I'd be interested in seeing a project that would make the megawad that Sverre's levels were originally supposed to be part of, but that's all (and it would be best if he made the levels himself, which isn't going to happen).

Heh, I actually thought most of Sverre's maps were some of the worst in the Master Level set. Best maps as far as I'm concerned were Paradox, Attack and Vesperas, and two of those already have remakes available courtesy of Dutch Devil.

Anyway, I have to agree with most of the other people in this thread in that I don't really see any point behind this. The Master Levels as a whole didn't have a unique enough style to copy, unlike Doom, Doom 2 and Final Doom.

i liked the map virgil a lot. canyon was pretty fun too, wasnt too fond of combine or catwalk, or fistula, but i liked geryon. minos was pretty good, nessus was meh, didnt like subspace that much, subterra was ok i guess... all in all i enjoyed the master levels.

Might as well put my own opinion on the various levels:

Great - Paradox
Good - Attack, Vesperas
Decent - Bloodsea Keep, The Catwalk, The Combine, The Fistula, Geryon, Minos Judgment, Nessus, Subspace
Meh - Canyon, Titan Manor, Subterra
Bad - Black Tower, The Garrison, Mephisto's Maosoleum, Trapped on Titan, The Express Elevator to Hell, Virgil's Lead

Another thing that could be done is to make a Cabal episode (perhaps 6-8 maps), each level with a new decorate boss at the end, as a Cabal member for you kill in your revenge.
The only limitation for this, is that if done right you'd have to respect that in the Master Levels you already face the new Cyberdemon that rules the Cabal. You can always put a major demonic entity that used Chagrin as a puppet, and planned this to take control over hell.

Nuxius said:

Heh, I actually thought most of Sverre's maps were some of the worst in the Master Level set.

Hm, I'm surprised to hear this opinion. The black tower's exterior and base level could certainly use polish, and the second level of teeth is even more sparse than a Cyberdreams levels, but I overall found his levels to be immersive, challenging and the most fun to play. Of course, I really appreciate when a good text file will give me a reason for why I'm fighting - and the quests to kill a certain cyberdemon/archvile/spirit made the levels feel like a progression towards a goal instead of just a bunch of fights - which is how all the other maps felt to me. John's levels also have text file stories but they make absolutely no sense next to the levels...

I'd say, go for it, if you can recreate creepy atmosphere of master levels yet keeping it's greatness, would love to see it, ONLY IN BOOM :D

JohnnyRancid said:
Not exactly like a KDiZD thing, more like a wanna-be Plutonia 2, except instead of being Plutonia, It would look like the Master Levels.

Well, Plutonia is consistent overall, and the P2 project is being led by level designers from the speedrunning scene, which have the sort of spirit to intuitively exploit the Plutonian style. But the Master Levels are only a bunch of decent but not particularly exceptional levels, linked only partially because various levels are by the same authors, and in general more superficially because they were released commercially in one package.

Janitor said:Doom2 stock textures == shit [/B]

No

@Nuxius >>(Bad - Black Tower)

Eat shit and die.

Nuxius said:

Bad - Black Tower

Eat shit and die.

Nazgûl Icarus said:

Eat shit and die.

I would second that, if he wasn't reviewing my wad for /newstuff...

Nazgûl Icarus said:

@Nuxius >>(Bad - Black Tower)

Eat shit and die.

Yea what the hell, I loved that map :/

And AAAAGGGGGGGHHHH...I had an idea similar to this a while back. Though my idea was more of a KZiZD type recreation than anything, but still a Plut2-inspired for the Master Levels would be a cool thing to see I'd say.