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Hellbent

Original Doom Community Project Idea

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You lack context. I'm speaking of people more likely to sign up for a Gothic map project than a Vanilla one.

Also, at this time IDE detects 600 servers and 30 of them are running dwango5. 26 of those are MAP01. ONE of those servers actually has people on it, and it's in Skulltag. I didn't imply everyone is playing the map (which they aren't) but that it's a waste of server space.

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I do agree that the weapon progression is important. Common texture themes, weapon progression and intermission picks are the major elements that held the original episodes together. I certainly wouldn't say that weapon placement in Doom 1 is unpatterned, just that it doesn't have to be copied to the letter.

Because all mappers want a chance to stretch their creative legs, I imagine that the closest a project can get nowadays to recreating Doom 1 is by feeling like Doom 1 while being different in some fundamental ways. KDiZD, for example, sought to give players that same old experience, and I felt that they largely succeeded - while obviously making a product that was utterly beyond what ID was capable of at the time. It's certainly possible to recreate the Doom 1 experience in ways that are more technologically even with Doom 1 as well. I would regain all interest in this project if:

1. All mappers are limited to a small set of textures per episode, but these textures are all brand new. It would also be possible to replace weapons and monsters with brand-new (but old-fashioned) weapons and monsters.
2. All mappers plan weapon progression carefully with other mappers in their episode, to provide for one of the oldest forms of continuity. It would also be interesting to see new interpics, perhaps mapping new locations - and a new story as simply crafted as the first, but something other than "UAC is dumb."
3. Mappers are restricted to the original sidedef rendering limit of 128. And don't take advantage of the gross hacks that we've been abusing ever since then.

Aside from that, I would get out of the mappers' hair as much as possible, and see what's put together. The even smaller sidedef limit would be an interesting new obstacle for modern mappers, and would already take steps towards making levels feel more ID-like. Areas would mostly be indoor instead of outdoor again (as there's no chance for complex outdoor scenes) and fewer indoor areas would be given a supposed function. (The original Doom levels are made up of spaces that have no function - they make no practical sense whatsoever. Why is this walkway crooked? Why is this a maze? Why is there slime everywhere?)

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Creaphis said:

(The original Doom levels are made up of spaces that have no function - they make no practical sense whatsoever. Why is this walkway crooked? Why is this a maze? Why is there slime everywhere?)

Well, remember that at the time the engine was new and flashy. At least by E2, you'd see hallways with a bunch of tiny crevices and details for no other reason than because they were able to do it. Of course, not nearly to the extent that we see in modern maps; at the time, an unreachable room with three columns and a pool of blood was considered "complex scenery". Any detail that couldn't be conveyed in texture art was incredibly simplified. E1M1's crooked walkway surrounded by slime, at least to me, was supposed to look like a collapsed bridge or some kind of flooded room.

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Creaphis said:
Why is this walkway crooked? Why is this a maze? Why is there slime everywhere?

Not seldom these types of questions have explicit answers which the designers have noted in comments. From what I've read in these, they were mostly attempting to either give certain impressions (space related, to implement certain settings, to produce moods, &c) or to follow game mechanics ("gameplay"), if not both.

Green slime, to give an evident example, is the way poisonous floors are marked (which have a bearing on gameplay). This is particularly consistent in Romero's levels. In a game that's new to players (unlike PWADs that use the same sector types, things and line triggers we've known for years) it's important to give relatively straightforward visual cues of game elements, or newer players will be confused and discouraged. The slime is just something that can hurt you as you progress, like the traps in a side-scroller, spicing up the action.

I'd say the crooked walkway was designed that way to force the player to either confront the monsters face to face, walk on the slime, or otherwise go through that area with care. Also, not allowing the player to run straight through without possibly stepping on the slime or getting blocked. A minor reason was to add irregularity to the design (Romero was good at not including square rooms). It seems that Romero concentrated on many small gameplay elements to produce a complex progression with relatively challenging opposition, while Petersen concentrated on giving each level a different global concept (at least when he had the time to develop it, like in E2M9, E3M2, E3M5 and E3M6).

Neither cared much for realism... but then that's what allowed them to produce such a fun action packed game in a reasonable time. Looking for non-game related reasons for design elements (realistic or common-sensical reasons) can be a waste of time in that respect.

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Creaphis said:

I do agree that the weapon progression is important. Common texture themes, weapon progression and intermission picks are the major elements that held the original episodes together. I certainly wouldn't say that weapon placement in Doom 1 is unpatterned, just that it doesn't have to be copied to the letter.

Because all mappers want a chance to stretch their creative legs, I imagine that the closest a project can get nowadays to recreating Doom 1 is by feeling like Doom 1 while being different in some fundamental ways. KDiZD, for example, sought to give players that same old experience, and I felt that they largely succeeded - while obviously making a product that was utterly beyond what ID was capable of at the time. It's certainly possible to recreate the Doom 1 experience in ways that are more technologically even with Doom 1 as well. I would regain all interest in this project if:

1. All mappers are limited to a small set of textures per episode, but these textures are all brand new. It would also be possible to replace weapons and monsters with brand-new (but old-fashioned) weapons and monsters.
2. All mappers plan weapon progression carefully with other mappers in their episode, to provide for one of the oldest forms of continuity. It would also be interesting to see new interpics, perhaps mapping new locations - and a new story as simply crafted as the first, but something other than "UAC is dumb."
3. Mappers are restricted to the original sidedef rendering limit of 128. And don't take advantage of the gross hacks that we've been abusing ever since then.

Aside from that, I would get out of the mappers' hair as much as possible, and see what's put together. The even smaller sidedef limit would be an interesting new obstacle for modern mappers, and would already take steps towards making levels feel more ID-like. Areas would mostly be indoor instead of outdoor again (as there's no chance for complex outdoor scenes) and fewer indoor areas would be given a supposed function. (The original Doom levels are made up of spaces that have no function - they make no practical sense whatsoever. Why is this walkway crooked? Why is this a maze? Why is there slime everywhere?)


That is an interesting interpretation of my original idea, but it is quite different than what I was going for and quite a bit more ambitious. I hadn't thought about it, but I think new intermission screens would be really great. I guess I'll do a bulleted style of things I agree with and disagree with in your post.

1. I agree with limited texture set. Absolutely a great idea to keep each episode unique. I do NOT think it's necessary to have them all be brand new. Who is going to make them? If there really are enough talented artists in the doom community who have an interest in this and can pull off an entirely new texture set for three episodes--then I'd be open to the idea, but I just don't see it happening at a successful enough level to be really exciting. I can see why you want brand new--so the new experience of playing doom for the first time can be recreated. Caveat: given all the new weapons and monsters made over the years, perhaps I should take back my comment about the textures! Maybe this is a realistic idea.

2. I agree with everything in number 2.

3. I'm not familiar with the original sidedef rendering limit of 128--but that also sounds like a good idea. This certainly would keep it firmly in another category than KDiZD.

I'm open to getting out of the mappers hair. That seems reasonable and I can certainly understand why you take that attitude as I have run into considerable problems in trying to micromanage the detailing of Greenwar2 (although I stick firm that it is necessary to preserve good gameplay in its case). People like creative freedom.

Does anyone care to weigh in on Creaphis' suggestion for this project idea? I think it's a bit ambitious, but if people are interested in it, I think it could be very cool. I guess I'm still partial to my original idea of keeping with the original textures/weapons and monsters of id, but this is a community project idea--so other people should weigh in with how they feel this project should proceed (if they still think it should proceed at all.)

EDIT: I think really the main thing I am interested in this project is simplicity. I still think the Doom engine is best suited to the amount of detail found in original doom and Doom 2 levels. I think it is a great creative challenge to create atmosphere by having to get creative in a different kind of way. Instead of a kind of creativity that means big elaborate and exquisitely detailed rooms and areas and general epicness--it means learning to be creative in a different kind of way, a new kind of challenge: to develop an understanding of the aesthetic effect of the shape of a room/area--the size of a room/area--how the room/aera relates to other rooms/areas etc--while keeping the room's shape as basic and *efficient* as possible. So the point is to rely on fundamental shapes and sizes rather than intricate detail for a desired kind of feel or atmosphere. For me this is the ultimate challenge in mapping for Doom--and the person who can employ this approach well should be held in highest esteem--at least as it pertains to making old skool style levels--as this project entails. (detailed Epicness has its place in doom too)

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My opinion is that this is the "Doom The Way id Did" project, or DTWiD for short. Introducing new graphics would be a different project. It would be "Doom in id Style But With Other Things", or DiiSBWOT. This project and that project would be different. I'm sorry he feels stifled by the original artwork, though.

If we're re-doing Doom we also wouldn't be introducing a new story. We would be doing the Doom story. It'd be interesting if we could illustrate it somehow better than id did, but straying from the narrative is, again, a different project.

I also wouldn't imply that we should DETAIL DETAIL DETAIL until we push the 128 sidedef limit to its... limits. Of course, the original levels were never designed with this in mind. It's slightly more likely they attempted to use as few sidedefs as possible. Or at least, detailed however they wanted and consequently removed vertices until the map didn't crash anymore.

At any rate, it's up to you whether or not this megawad should be truly 100% original.

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I think that introducing new story, new textures and new monsters to something along the lines of Doom's original mapping style would be the best middle ground. This would be much more interesting to play and to map for than using stock resources again, while being reasonably close to this project's original intentions.

You're right, in that making a brand-new texture set would be a lot of work and probably too ambitious for this project. Making new monster sprites is far more difficult and time consuming than that, yet. So, I take back those suggestions, but propose this in its place: Look through old projects and old texture wads and use them to assemble a new texture set that's self-consistent and artistically similar to the original textures. But, limit each episode to certain texture sets and themes, and prohibit use of the actual original textures to preserve simplicity. A similar thing could be done to compose a new set of DeHackEd monsters and weapons from existing sprites.

As far as the original 128 sidedef rendering limit is concerned, it's also true that ID never really tried to exceed this limit, while modern mappers tend to push against any limit they're given. Still, I think this is the best method by which to reach more classic level appearances and styles. Stating anything more than a simple limit will verge back into micromanagement and fighting creativity. Certain things like unusual room shapes, simple outdoor areas, minimal furniture, etc., can be encouraged but not really enforced. If you want a project in which every level looks precisely like Doom 1 in terms of architecture, gameplay, balance and atmosphere, then this probably can't be a community project, but would be best done by a limited number of mappers with shared artistic vision.

Myk: I know that there's reasons for all the architecture in the games, but they're gameplay reasons, and not function reasons. Imagine a crew living/working in a space station - there is absolutely no room in Doom 1 episodes 1 and 2 that could serve any purpose for these people. That's what I was saying, and that is part of the style of Doom 1.

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The way this is starting to look with all the talk of new sprites, enemies, weapons, etc. is a project very similar to KDiZD. When I first read this project proposal, I imagined this to be the opposite of what KDiZD did, keeping everything as by-the-book as possible; no new weapons, no new sprites, just similar stuff to the original.

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Creaphis said:

I think that introducing new story, new textures and new monsters to something along the lines of Doom's original mapping style would be the best middle ground. This would be much more interesting to play and to map for than using stock resources again, while being reasonably close to this project's original intentions.

Where did this idea of compromise come from? You were the one that started requesting changes in the first place; now you're asking to meet you halfway..? The thread is asking a very simple question. "Does anyone want to make a megawad that resembles as closely as possible the design law and aesthetics of the original games?" With all due respect, I think you've already given your answer.

I, personally, am intruiged by the idea and would like to see this project take off without diluting its purpose.

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Thank you for the comments Bucket and DD. I have to agree with Bucket, first I make a competition idea and Creaphis comes along and tries to sabotage it. Now he is trying to sabotage this idea. Bucket is right, Creaphis is the only one who has actually expressed wanting a compromise. I'm open to your suggestions Creaphis, and I want people's input, but you do have a way of hijacking threads. I also was concerned that this might be like KDiZD, but the 128 limit is one thing that would keep it from being like KDiZD. DD is right, my intent was to steer far clear of KDiZD. Nevertheless, I agree with Bucket in that creaphis' modification of my original idea is really a different project. Not to attack you too much Creaphis, but it's somewhat interesting that you first shot down my other idea, saying it wasn't fit for a competitive project, and now you are trying to say this one is not fit for a community project! I can't win with you!

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You're right. I've interfered by bringing in an artistic idea which is held by me and me alone. I apologize. Judging it as ZKiZD is a stretch, though, as that project took complexity to the extreme. The project I proposed would be doing more or less what ID did - make a simply designed but well balanced set of levels, with new monsters and textures. Nobody had ever seen imps or STARTAN before, and I merely felt that a similar feel could be gained by surprising players with new resources in this same way. I proposed this as a possible method by which to interest mappers and players. I do realize now that it's not a great method - as it wouldn't be any more like reliving Doom 1 than it would be like reliving the Aliens TC, and more consistency with Doom itself is crucial.

Despite my constant complaining against your ideas (which is disturbingly frequent in retrospect - sorry again) I'm not the source of problems here. I'm merely a depressingly accurate bringer of bad news. I do not "sabotage" what other people set out to do. Rather, I outline the reasons why something is unlikely to work in the Doom community. I see an idea that I feel is unlikely to work, and I encourage the holder of that idea to consider ideas that are more likely, so that the holder of that idea won't expend large amounts of energy before it ultimately fails. It would be impossible for me to "sabotage" an idea anyway, as whether an idea works or not is not decided by me.

Consider this earlier statement of mine:
"Stating anything more than a simple limit will verge back into micromanagement and fighting creativity. Certain things like unusual room shapes, simple outdoor areas, minimal furniture, etc., can be encouraged but not really enforced. If you want a project in which every level looks precisely like Doom 1 in terms of architecture, gameplay, balance and atmosphere, then this probably can't be a community project, but would be best done by a limited number of mappers with shared artistic vision."

If this project is run as a traditional community project, where mappers claim one slot each and submit their maps, you'll have no choice but to heavily micromanage the map production. Your comments on Death-Destiny's map make this obvious. This will frustrate and and discourage mappers who want to work creatively in other ways. Episode balancing and quality control will be very difficult - as the mappers won't necessarily want to plan weapon/monster/size progression with other mappers, and in some cases, map quality will be too high. Also, without new resources or anything new to work with, there will be few mappers who step forward in the first place, and your project's map list will have major gaps. Therefore, here is my final suggestion on how to make your idea a reality:

Find and carefully select mappers with the same artistic vision that you have, and make the project with them. Right now, you and Bucket clearly have the same goals in mind, so... make episode 1 together! When that's done and released, new mappers with the same vision as yours may come out of the woodwork, to help complete the megawad. If this isn't a "community project" in your book, then I'm sorry, but the community of people who will be interested in this idea and capable of executing it in ways you approve of will be small. That's true whether I'm here to point it out or not.

There. I promise to never criticize your ideas again. I'm done here. I wish you luck.

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heh, well put Creaphis. You make valid points. Sorry if I came on a bit strong there... I do appreciate your comments and suggestions. You're probably right with most of what you said.

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Nah, you didn't come across any stronger than I have.

I should also resolve this, as I feel like a bit of a jackass for it:

"Not to attack you too much Creaphis, but it's somewhat interesting that you first shot down my other idea, saying it wasn't fit for a competitive project, and now you are trying to say this one is not fit for a community project! I can't win with you!"

When I was advising that you turn your competition idea into a community project idea I wasn't anticipating that you'd aim for a high degree of continuity in texture, weapon placement and monsters in addition to the stylistic similarity, because those things weren't really part of the competition proposal. As these things increase the need for organization and reduce the chance for individual creativity they make it harder to recruit for a project, which is never easy in the first place... (except for big names like CC)

There. Now I'm done.

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Creaphis said:
I know that there's reasons for all the architecture in the games, but they're gameplay reasons, and not function reasons.

Since it's a game, the reasons are totally functional; more so than any imaginary (realistic) factors that don't really affect the game action. You're using the wrong words or insufficient words, at least. Besides, my point was that that sort of "functionality" (mostly realism) can be a problem in itself. Firstly, by interfering with gameplay, because it can condition gameplay functionality as you can't play around with it as freely (as you need to accommodate realistic or expected factors). Secondly, by adding too much to development time compared to the resulting enjoyment and replayability. Thirdly, by producing aesthetically lacking results, because one tries to mimic external constructs too much instead of exploiting the internal potential (and thus beauty) of the engine and resources more.

Arguably considering those factors, the DOOM designers found any realism more convenient and helpful as a starting point from where varied gameplay constructs can be developed, rather than as an objective.

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Yeah, so I've already started. Since this is my first SP outing, I'm just throwing in whatever looks good. I think it serves best as an E2 map, but of course retexturing is always possible.



WAD in progress if you feel like critiquing. It's only a few hours of work.
http://www.speedyshare.com/536481925.html

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Argh, I can't stay out of here.

Myk, you're right, I'm using insufficient words. Let me try again.

Modern player-made maps often have "functional" spaces. By this, I mean that a castle map may have a "dungeon" area. It has an area that functions as a dungeon. A hypothetical being living in this crazy Doom world may use this area to house prisoners (typically dying marines). A tech map may have a laboratory area. The lab area functions as a lab. Even if the player can't perform his own experiments, it's still a "functional" space. Sorry to get pedantic here. My point is simply that there is no area in Doom 1 where the player can pinpoint the function - the hypothetical use - of an area in this way (except for "Containment Area," which could theoretically have been a useful storage area before someone decided to stack the boxes without pallets in ridiculous piles).

I have never meant this as a criticism against Doom. I acknowledge that everything in these maps has a function in expediting gameplay, and I appreciate the transparency - the purity - of the combat therein. But, part of the style of Doom 1 is that the architecture is, well, useless. It's all rooms, hallways, doors, windows, lifts and slime pits. The rooms may have a monitor or two but that's about it, and I'm not sure what needs monitoring.

I admire the simplicity and variety of Doom, but I also appreciate it when a mapper goes to the trouble of making something feel like a "functional" place. I can feel more immersed in what I'm playing if it's believable that the place I'm fighting in exists for another reason aside from being a demonic battleground. But, "function" can also get in the way of gameplay, I'll admit. RTC-whatever hub 1 serves as a good example of both successes and failures. I loved how every area in that wad had a purpose that a space station would require - the atmosphere was enhanced by the fact that I was actually battling through hangers, mess halls, the bridge, etc. However, I also remember how dull it was to see eight identical rooms in the sleeping quarters.

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Anywho, I'm also putting together a map myself using this idea.

Some screenshots:



Started on it yesterday and worked on it for about a hour and a half, getting ready to hack back at it again today.

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Bucket said:

Yeah, so I've already started. Since this is my first SP outing, I'm just throwing in whatever looks good. I think it serves best as an E2 map, but of course retexturing is always possible.



WAD in progress if you feel like critiquing. It's only a few hours of work.
http://www.speedyshare.com/536481925.html


Nice screenie Bucket. Looks very reminiscent of episode 3 (e3m1 specifically)

I like the atmosphere and arrangement in the wad. Seems like it could maybe fit between e3m1 and e3m2 if not replace e3m1. Sector shapes look pretty good too.

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Nuxius said:

Anywho, I'm also putting together a map myself using this idea.

Some screenshots:



Started on it yesterday and worked on it for about a hour and a half, getting ready to hack back at it again today.


wow, excellent

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Ceraphis said:I think that introducing new story, new textures and new monsters to something along the lines of Doom's original mapping style would be the best middle ground. This would be much more interesting to play and to map for than using stock resources again, while being reasonably close to this project's original intentions.


I agree, that's why my level (Deimous Anamoly Redux) not only has SUPRISE monsters, but they are used not too often and in fact are MODIFIED versions of Tormenters' critters. They add to the bestiary in DooM without cluttering it because I only use a handful in such a small level.

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Creaphis said:
I have never meant this as a criticism against Doom.

What I was saying may have seemed as a reply to criticism, but more importantly it meant to point out that there is a purpose in the lack of those realistic features. It's a conceptual matter (the id guys had this sort of discussion, which pushed Tom Hall out in the end).

However, I also remember how dull it was to see eight identical rooms in the sleeping quarters.

Aesthetically some parts become uninteresting as well because of the necessity to justify the architecture, such as in those plain feeling rooms with some consoles stuck on the walls. It's tiring to have to give each section a meaning, especially if you go into details. At least RTC3057 exploited its new content and didn't concentrate on annoying little sector stuff. A less rational and more intuitive philosophy that concentrates on play mechanics and global aesthetics goes a long way, in my opinion (particularly as far as the action-packed DOOM games are concerned).

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What about seeing faithful E2 remakes? There are more textures needed AND less detail accepted, than for E1.
One gotta make good maps that must look dated (i.e. two-dimensional), to conform with E2.
See Episode 2, then compare it with likes of e1m4, e1m7, e1m6, to see how the episode's two-dim, unlike said levels.

E1 was and is beaten to death. As ReX's site states, E1 editing is (too) easy. Too few textures and near liberal usage of 'em. Moderate detail as well. Enough said here.

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printz said:

What about seeing faithful E2 remakes? There are more textures needed AND less detail accepted, than for E1.
One gotta make good maps that must look dated (i.e. two-dimensional), to conform with E2.
See Episode 2, then compare it with likes of e1m4, e1m7, e1m6, to see how the episode's two-dim, unlike said levels.

E1 was and is beaten to death. As ReX's site states, E1 editing is (too) easy. Too few textures and near liberal usage of 'em. Moderate detail as well. Enough said here.


the project idea calls for picking your episode--but I wouldn't be opposed to narrowing it down to E2. Narrowing it down to an episode sure makes the project less daunting and seem more realistic to complete.

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Yeah, I assumed we were doing all 3 (4?) episodes. A regular E1 replacement wouldn't be much of an undertaking.

Hellbent said:

I like the atmosphere and arrangement in the wad. Seems like it could maybe fit between e3m1 and e3m2 if not replace e3m1. Sector shapes look pretty good too.

Sersiouly? I figured that E2 had more tech-base architecture, with hell elements "invading" parts of the maps. While E3 was straight hell. But if you figure it's more suited for E3 and should be retextured, that's cool.

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Bucket said:

Yeah, I assumed we were doing all 3 (4?) episodes. A regular E1 replacement wouldn't be much of an undertaking.

Sersiouly? I figured that E2 had more tech-base architecture, with hell elements "invading" parts of the maps. While E3 was straight hell. But if you figure it's more suited for E3 and should be retextured, that's cool.


the use of ashwall made me think e3 -but the use of startanvine is more e2. I would change the ashwall if you want it not like e3.

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I'd like to see an e2-themed episode without e2's boring flatness. Sandy's e2 and e3 levels tended to be very flat and two-dimensional compared to Romero's e1 levels. E1 put a lot of emphasis on height variation, windows into other parts of the map that you'd be able to access later, etc., to better show off the 3D space of the map (and the engine's capabilities, while still keeping the actual designs relatively simple for speed/rendering purposes).

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Hellbent said:

the use of ashwall made me think e3 -but the use of startanvine is more e2. I would change the ashwall if you want it not like e3.

The use of ashwall means that part of the map isn't done...

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Bucket said:

The use of ashwall means that part of the map isn't done...

oh... hehe, well that changes things. :)

Is FIREWALA an E2 texture? I just searched all 9 levels and it doesn't appear. Might want to change it to FIRELAVA or FIREMAG*

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