I have an idea to stimulate community growth from newbies.

I have an idea to stimulate community growth from newbies.
Probably been done but.

What I would do is get a few newbies that post in here to release a group of maps probably around 4 I am assuming because most of them will flake out as we all know the transitory nature of the noob. The wads will be modified by either a group of more experienced members or myself to the playable level then released.

Now I do realize that a project of even this small size is maddeningly difficult but I think that it would be good for newbies to see how their maps can look and to gain self confidence. then perhaps newbies will stick around longer.

I'd really like to contribute to something like this. Since I've been here, there's been a few community map packs started (CC4 and Claustrophobia 1024), but I don't feel that I'm yet at the skill level required to submit something competent to either of those.

With the help of Mechadon, a deathmatch level that I'm working on has turned out pretty OK. It's being submitted for an Instagib pack that he's organized over at the Skulltag forums, but I'd really like to sharpen my single player skills.

I would contribute to something like that.....

It is a really good idea.

I disagree with this part of the proposal-

kaiser_wilhelm said:

The wads will be modified by either a group of more experienced members or myself to the playable level then released.

At what point would a newbie mapper have to hand over their map so it can be completed "modified to the playable level"? Will they become better mappers if someone else is finishing their wads for them?
I'm very much in favour of fostering new talent but don't think this is the best approach. Maybe the informal mentoring that goes on in these forums could be taken a step further.

GreyGhost said:

I disagree with this part of the proposal-At what point would a newbie mapper have to hand over their map so it can be completed "modified to the playable level"? Will they become better mappers if someone else is finishing their wads for them?
I'm very much in favour of fostering new talent but don't think this is the best approach. Maybe the informal mentoring that goes on in these forums could be taken a step further.

I think it's interesting because the newbies would see how the map can be improved, I've learned many things with a more experienced mapper like this.
But then the 'newbie' would have to make a map with an 'equal quality' after.

GreyGhost said:

I disagree with this part of the proposal-At what point would a newbie mapper have to hand over their map so it can be completed "modified to the playable level"? Will they become better mappers if someone else is finishing their wads for them?
I'm very much in favour of fostering new talent but don't think this is the best approach. Maybe the informal mentoring that goes on in these forums could be taken a step further.

It depends on the amount of time they are willing to put into it and the ability level they can map. you are correct though. I will think that aspect over, however, I do want there to be some editing by more experienced mappers if it is needed once the newbie has put in enough that they can aligning textures/better texture choices and making sure they don't put a cyberdemon at the beginning of the level etc. A lot of the time a newbie doesn't have enough focus to get their early maps done and this could help them. Its sort of like how when you have something you are creating that is very big for example a bridge you have aspects that the junior members do and the senior members do.

K!r4 said:

I think it's interesting because the newbies would see how the map can be improved, I've learned many things with a more experienced mapper like this.
But then the 'newbie' would have to make a map with an 'equal quality' after.

That's correct, I think that it is possible to have a follow up wad later. Basically what I want to do is have is in the end some palatable maps that were made by a newbie with structured input from someone more experienced.

I agree with Greyhost that this idea in it's current state will not be beneficial. The new mappers will not learn anything from this because someone else is doing the work for them. I've tried this approach before and the follow up maps from the people whose map I "modified to the playable level" were all the same quality as before.

I agree that perhaps a dedicated thread to this end might be useful, but the experienced mappers should limit themselves to advice that points the new mappers in the right direction, but the new mappers have to actually do everything themselves.

I think the basic idea is fine though: a project where it is OK to be a newbie mapper is less daunting to those without experience and if the old hands can help out with tips and advice, so much the better. It could turn out to be quite a supportive thing for the new mappers concerned.

There are 29 people who have joined in the past month who have made posts on these boards. I don't think we have a problem with community growth. If you want to start a "newbie only" project, that's great, but keep in mind there are already plenty of ongoing projects that would benefit from new blood.

Enjay said:

I think the basic idea is fine though: a project where it is OK to be a newbie mapper is less daunting to those without experience and if the old hands can help out with tips and advice, so much the better. It could turn out to be quite a supportive thing for the new mappers concerned.

I was once a newbie mapper who got started by posting stuff on Doomworld. From my experience, the biggest hurdles for a newbie are:

1) Technical Knowledge

I didn't know how teleporters worked, or why my door won't open, or why my map failed to run (sector referencing was a slow and painful learning process). I asked for help and got it.

The willingness on the newbie's part to ask questions is crucial here.

2) The ability to accept criticism of one's work

Let's face it, we all map to the best of our abilities, even as newbies, and then some random dude on the intarweb tell us that it's one of the worst he's seen. That certainly is a bump in the road in the quest to create our "coolest map evar" isn't it?

What's a newbie to do?

Someone told me, "your map sucks," I could:
a) Go cry in a corner.
b) Tell them they suck.
c) Open my map and verify if their statement is valid.
d) Ignore their comments because they're a bunch of trolls.

Most of the time I choose option C, which oftentimes show gaping evidence that the critic is right. Fix the map, show it again, get criticize, improve it, show it again, rinse lather repeat.

A thread of my first map (Deus Vult) goes to show the kind of goofy interaction that would occur between the mapper and the critics.

Newbies including myself in the past often believed that advanced mappers are these genius wizards that generate awesome WADs with a stroke of their wand (gay pun unintended, haha), and we get daunted when our first efforts fall short of Alien Vendetta, believing that we're no good based on this.

With experience one realizes that the aforementioned is not the case: improving at mapping is an evolution, not a revolution. Nobody ever gets the scale of their corridors or monster density right the first time; this requires experience and extensive testing of the map, and a healthy dose of online criticism from strangers.

--- ---- ----

With all that said, this forum (minus the trolls) provides a ton of veteran mappers who can deal out forgiving feedback and point the new mappers in the right direction.

Regarding the project oriented toward newbie mappers, if it's done right it could be a good idea, like a CC for newbies.

Doom Marine said:

Regarding the project oriented toward newbie mappers, if it's done right it could be a good idea, like a CC for newbies.

Isn't that what the first CC pack originated as?

Bucket said:

There are 29 people who have joined in the past month who have made posts on these boards. I don't think we have a problem with community growth. If you want to start a "newbie only" project, that's great, but keep in mind there are already plenty of ongoing projects that would benefit from new blood.

What projects are currently open? CC4 is full and I think that Claustrophobia 1024 would be a pretty big (small? ha!) undertaking for novice mappers - or at least I know that I'd be pretty intimidated by it. If there are any projects being worked on that would have some novice-friendly map slots open, I'd love to be a part of them. I've been working on a level that would make a great E1M1 / MAP01, but it's certainly not enough to release all on it's own.

alien8 said:

Isn't that what the first CC pack originated as?

That wasn't the intention. Many mappers of CC1 weren't newbs, but the project has always held the stance that anyone can join regardless of skill.

Doom Marine said:

I didn't know how teleporters worked, or why my door won't open, or why my map failed to run (sector referencing was a slow and painful learning process). I asked for help and got it.

Hey I'm in that thread too, I'm kickin'

Use3D said:

Hey I'm in that thread too, I'm kickin'

and almost five years later, I made good on my resolution on my post after you!

Wanna have new maps ?...

Well basically, need to have a database of skills...
- coordinators
- mappers
- graphists
- MIDI musicians
- WAV samplers
- testers
- hosters
...

In my opinion, as wrote Doom Marine, we all of us had one day estimate our work was excellent and few years later we saw it was pure shit (by ourselves, so no needs to get smelly comments, just time :D ).

So estimate what is a good or a not good work is certainly not the best way. People need to release more and more maps to gain experience.

If a map follows a list of criteria, it's valid, afterwhat people may rate it (friendly rating with explanations, say that a work is pure shit is never likable to anyone).

I think that criteria list and skills list may help community to get more maps.

You certainly heard a bit about my current "Hokuto" (flaming) project, totally handmade by Doom community newbies...
We simply get the best of each individual to create a valid project.

Also you need to set deadlines or projects review or if community starts few "huge" projects with quality level that will generate a 5 years estimated worktime, that could be problematic to generate some frequent "fresh" maps.

Then you may have "long range" "middle range" and "short range" projects.
Newbies may focus on "short range" in order to gain experience or join some "medium range" or "long range" if their skills may complete a lack on a project...

Here is my profile, enjoy :D

ICEMAN57
coordinator : 8/10
mapper : 2/10
graphist : 8/10
MIDI musician : 2/10
WAV sampler : 2/10
tester : 2/10
hoster : 0/10

EDIT: nvm

^^^ That's quite a good explanation there, I liked your idea

But honestly you shouldn't rate yourself :P

Pareto rules of 80%-20%...
You can estimate skills on about 80%

Problem is you always need to say skills, not to compare to others, just to say where are your best points, and bad points.

This is an image, that could be 20 points spent in different Health Point, Magic point, Strengh, Stamina, in any heroic fantasy videogame.

I just note that main idea of this thread is to get fresh maps, so a way to get some maps is to know who can handle what task, and then this people can be added to a project.

Doom Marine said:

1) Technical Knowledge

I didn't know how teleporters worked, or why my door won't open, or why my map failed to run (sector referencing was a slow and painful learning process). I asked for help and got it.

Reading that reminds me how well-written was DoomCAD's tutorial.

iceman57 said:

Pareto rules of 80%-20%...
You can estimate skills on about 80%

Problem is you always need to say skills, not to compare to others, just to say where are your best points, and bad points.

This is an image, that could be 20 points spent in different Health Point, Magic point, Strengh, Stamina, in any heroic fantasy videogame.

I just note that main idea of this thread is to get fresh maps, so a way to get some maps is to know who can handle what task, and then this people can be added to a project.

Dude, stop confusing the newbies and the rest of us with your nonsense. Frenchman.

Don't give any more ideas until you've finished yours:
http://www.wadsinprogress.info/index.php?a=listwads&wad=1053

Need I remind you that you can't even put together something that's legal?
http://www.doomworld.com/vb/wads-mods/43687-hokuto-no-doom-project-complete-ressources/

You have no fucking credibility. None. Nothing comes of it when you pompously promote your Hokuto no Doom and whatever vaporware you're working on in your own fucking thread, but when you start to pollute other threads with your clueless jargons, that's not okay, that's damaging the knowledge base of the Doom community.

Keep your mouth shut, don't get hung up on stupid shit like percent this-and-that. Just shut it and let the experts speak okay Benoit?

kimo_xvirus said:

^^^ That's quite a good explanation there, I liked your idea

But honestly you shouldn't rate yourself :P

Honestly, you need be aware of where the opinion is coming from, Iceman57 has no fucking clue how to operate any Doom project.
http://www.wadsinprogress.info/index.php?a=listwads&wad=1053

He is a poser, why do you think he is rating himself?

Ooh, Doom Marine, calm down :p

I more or less agree he isn't exactly the guy to give newbies advice, but it's just his experience from what he did. There's a lot of newbieness right now I think, because a bunch of new people have slowly gathered, and various old timers have become less active or left. I don't think they'll break anything, although it would do newer people good to browse a bit more. Many ideas popping up have already been digested by the community.

We might we need ideas to stimulate community regrowth from oldies :p

The day this community loses its memory, it'll die.

http://www.wadsinprogress.info/index.php?a=listwads&wad=1053

This thread has a discussion about dimensions in the DOOM games. I think iceman57's estimates are correct, especially based on the most player-centric element in the game; the player character sprite.

DOOM dimensions:

Player sprite height = 56 pixels high

Height of the marine = just over 6' (like Buddy Dacote or Arnold Schwarzenegger). To be exact 56 pixels will equal 6.3' (6' 3.6")

A height of 64 pixels = just over 7'
A height of 60 pixels = just over 2 meters

In the game pixels are higher than they are wide by 20%, so the dimensions for length and width are different from those of heights:

A width of 64 pixels = 6' (exactly)*

Arbitrary DOOM unit = 8 pixels
Pixel (width) = 18/16"
Pixel (height) = 21.6/16"
DOOM width unit (DWU) = 9.0"
DOOM height unit (DHU) = 10.8"

10.6666 pixels (width) = 1'
8.8888 pixels (height) = 1'

* The designers must have been thinking this when they drew the character sprites, knowing pixel height is stretched.

You know, maybe it's just because I am one, but do I ever hate the word 'newbie'.

myk said:

Ooh, Doom Marine, calm down :p

I more or less agree he isn't exactly the guy to give newbies advice, but it's just his experience from what he did.

I was a bit harsh on IceMan57 regarding my last reply, but he definitely needed to be called out for misinformation.

Hopefully he'll think about the way he's going about giving unsound advice, promoting his project, and spend more time actually working on it.

Regarding new blood, there's a bunch of them out there that shows good potential. The old ones will have to keep watch and lend their experience improve the newbies' work. Death Destiny seems to have great potential. His maps has good stuff and he's listening and actually responding in his maps to improve... one of the best assets of getting good.

These new mappers makes me want to come back from mapping vacation.

Doom Marine said:

Honestly, you need be aware of where the opinion is coming from, Iceman57 has no fucking clue how to operate any Doom project.
http://www.wadsinprogress.info/index.php?a=listwads&wad=1053

He is a poser, why do you think he is rating himself?

Poser ???... Why do I feel I'm like Unabomber since I entered in this community.

I accept critic, but only when they are based on a list of valid points. I definitively am a newmbie for mapping, but for graphic design made around 15 years I use Photoshop (started with V3.0 on Windows 3.11). I'm also handling various projects.

Do I always have to face my past half legal releases.
I'm in rehab since a week, have a look on thread.

That was a purposal of few other project, not only Doom ones.
(I've other projects, other life that this game as many people here).

Just a question, why didn't you quote Hokuto one ?
http://www.wadsinprogress.info/?a=listwads&wad=881

I started from nothing, really nothing, "Hokuto" is my first Doom project.
I had to make a complete benchmark of all existing "Hokuto" project and their gameplay style.
I had to built the partnership with foreign websites, recruit the graphists, musicians, get the tools, discuss with other mappers.
It required a complete modelisation of characters like in a true animated comic...
Got to handle a team of over 30 individuals on whole planet (aged from 12 to 45), planned contest events,...

You can quote "Duke Nukem 3D - grabbag remix fan contest"
I convince "Vertexguy" and "Carbohydrom", two awesome musicians to play in (just type their name in Youtube they are guitar hero).
______

(Project 1083) Cathedral one is under progress while I integrated a business school after 12 years in industry, so I had to choose, school good points or mapping :D ...

Complete work on ALL textures compatibility, found a composer for the MIDI ambiance.

It's a great challenge to ONLY use regular Doom engine to built such kind of realistic map, scale 1:1, and I'm on it.

I take my time, built a project is not a speedrun, this I learned in industry...
________

To come back to thread topic to stimulate new ones on community.

I can arrange a contest as wrote in another thread, if you estimate that may get new mappers or stimulate the community, I can arrange it really quickly with some partners...

Comments welcome.

iceman57 said:I definitively am a newmbie for mapping

Too bad this thread is about mapping, isnt it?

Doomworld Forums > Classic Doom > WADs & Mods

See up and buy glasses, we're talking about "WADs & Mods"

A WAD is not only a map... it's a resource of graphics, audios, map and other contents.

Why do people only focus on mapping ???
There are few other skills to use.

If you could spare a few minutes to read the first post - this thread is/was discussing ways and means to help novices develop their mapping skills.

iceman57 said:

Why do people only focus on mapping ???
There are few other skills to use.

Whoa... ugh... There we go! Sorry had to squeeze through your giant ego so I could post. This isn't your thread, this isn't about hokoti ken doom or whatever the hell it's called. For some reason you think people will stop what they are doing and humor you. Go back to your own thread and annoy people there so we can just avoid one place instead of many.

Anyway, maybe the newbie mapper and the more experienced mapper could bounce the map back and forth so the new mapper could actually see as it grows along with how it grows.

The strange fact is that when I post, plan or realise something, generally follow "Zap610" comment or "Dutch Devil" one.

- Is it Voodoo curse ?
- Harasment due to half legal projects ?...

Made month I have to read their critics and I think this is also a point that didn't really help to recruit new people to make live this website forum and WAD quantity/quality release.
_________

Concerning main topic, first post is talking about optimisation of wad, gameplay, and what would map look like if senior people of community...

When I was a student, I was apprentice doing half time school, half time work. Why not simply include a senior teacher as direct contact on WAD project to coordinate and correct step by step possible WAD issues, ameliorate gameplay aspect...

This is the best way to progress...