KDiZD... thoughts?

Ok.... So I've just finished playing through KDiZD, and frankly, I loved it. I was just curious to see what other people thought of it as a whole. It sure wasn't vanilla doom, but I thought it did a fine job of capturing the original doom "spirit". Parts of it were genuinely scary. I played a lot of it late at night with the headphones on, ande dammit, it was great. The new monsters fitted right into the doom bestiary seamlessly, felt like they had always been there. The new double barrel shotty rocked.

A couple of things I didn't like (not trying to be critical, I was amazed at the sheer amount of work and creativity that must have gone into the project)
-the grenade launcher seemed out of place to me, and was way overpowered. Every time I ran into trouble, out it came and everything died. It took away some of the "scariness", coz now I could kill everything with relative ease.
-There was a little bit of a slump in the middle couple of levels (perhaps this was a relative thing given how atmospheric and tense the first 4 or 5 levels levels were. The last level recaptured the suspense perfectly tho.
-Spent a fair amount of time wandering around lost (though I did that in the original just as much as I recall.)
-My biggest dislike was the final fight (wont say much for the sake of those who haven't yet played it).

But that said, I thought the project succeeded in what it set out to do. It scared the hell outta me, beautifully atmospheric, great ambient sounds. (I heard quake2 and aliens amongst others). the monsters fitted right in, the double barrel was sufficiently painful to anyone getting in my way, and everything hung together pretty well. Go play it.

Dammit, I've written a review now. Wasn't meant to be that, was just curious to see what others thought of it.

I could appreciate the amount of work that went in to it (without knowing technically how most of it was done) and I was certainly impressed with how it looked and with the features it employed.

But I can't say I really enjoyed it. I found the levels too long and some areas too difficult to navigate. I rarely got that nostalgic feeling I expected either.

I thought some of the new monsters were good but there seemed to be an overkill on melee monster variations and those Hell Warrior lion things didn't fit well in my opinion.

It just felt a bit like work to play through and the neat surprises and cool looking areas only occasionaly were worth the effort. For reference I felt Classic Episode gave me a better nostalgia hit.

This seems really harsh now I look back at it. I don't mean to damn the project - it was an ambitious and impressive piece of work and I'm glad it was made. Maybe, I was looking for something in it that was never intended to me there. Well, I've kept it on my hard-drive anyway and I intend to give it another chance one day.

Generally I just didn't find it fun to play. I don't care how much detail something has, if it isn't fun it isn't worth it (to me). And that's another thing; the detail. Some areas look perfect with the excessive detail, but others just look ugly. It's almost like they went "HEY GUYS LOOK AT ME I SPENT HOURS DETAILING THIS SMALL AREA JUST BECAUSE I CAN". In some situations, less is more.

Also, don't even get me started on the hype...

zap610 said:

I don't care how much detail something has, if it isn't fun it isn't worth it (to me).

I agree wholeheartedly with that statement. I just can't bring myself to be completely critical over something someone has obviously gone to massive efforts to produce.

purist said:

For reference I felt Classic Episode gave me a better nostalgia hit.

What is Classic Episode..? I am curious to have a look.

zap610 said:

In some situations, less is more.

You have a good point Zap. That was exactly my problem with the final fight section.

http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/index.php?id=11658

There's also a second installment.

I liked it. The atmosphere felt about right to me.

KDiZD is k. It's not necessarily that impressive, as the wad does what it says on the tin, remakes Episode 1 of Doom in ZDoom. Nothing was really challenged there so to speak, the wad authors already had a basic "frame" to make their levels on, and ZDoom wasn't really used in a way nobody had ever used it before. Probably the most impressive thing about the wad is the collective amount of work put into creating the final product. It's also not that great to play through, IMO, although everyone has a different gameplay style they prefer so whatever.

As much as a plain rating can ever serve to sum up the quality of something, the /idgames database rating for KDiZD does a good job with 3.5 stars. It's a slightly better than average wad, and would not be nearly so memorable if it weren't for the well above average events surrounding it.

zap610 said:Also, don't even get me started on the hype...

I find the amount of hype a project has is a poor reason not to like it. Planes, Trains and Automobiles: Submarines is pretty hyped, too (even though it does look like a very well made game mode), by the way.

That said, KDiZD had some down-moments (mostly endless key hunts that take 10 minutes), but that detracted from it only slightly. Z1M9 was absolutely perfect (especially the Bruiser Demons), and the mod's use of reverbs was really great. The boss was a little easy and it's decorate wasn't as impressive as I would've liked, but it was pretty good, too.

I liked it, it's one of the few map packs that I completed from start to finish. My only gripe is that some of the monsters don't match with the overall quality, and the Bazooka zombie, while cool looking, the use of an unedited monster from other wad was kinda out of place IMO, especially knowing the kick ass sprite artists that were in the team.

I thought the rocket zombie fit quite well, for something that wasn't made specifically for KDiZD. It fit better, in my opinion, than the Mauler Demon.

Ghastly_dragon said:

I find the amount of hype a project has is a poor reason not to like it. Planes, Trains and Automobiles: Submarines is pretty hyped, too (even though it does look like a very well made game mode), by the way.

That hype was meant to be humorous, AND it was kept in one place. We didn't go around making threads or making news just because we made a poster. Threads were derailed for kdizd. Second, I clearly stated why I disliked kdizd with reasons other than hype.

zap610 said:

That hype was meant to be humorous, AND it was kept in one place. We didn't go around making threads or making news just because we made a poster. Threads were derailed for kdizd. Second, I clearly stated why I disliked kdizd with reasons other than hype.

Well, to be technical, a lot of KDiZD's hype was intended to be humorous as well, inspired by Action Doom's spoofy advertisements. I mean, can you really take "100% copy+paste, 0% gameplay" or uhhh........... as a serious ad?

Though it was definitely overdone.

Most of it wasn't like that though. Most of it did come of as really really pretentious.
And when he authors responded to people's displeasure with smug faces and comments like "-We're more popular than you are." and "-You're just jealous." Well, it didn't help. :p

But it's really water under the bridge by now IMO. KDIZD's reputation is more based on it's construction these days. And It's rather mediocre I'd say. There's some really nice things in it, but the levels are a real mess. Part hubris, part having several people work on each map, part the aggressive detail pimping. Some areas look quite good, while most look rather bland, and some are downright ugly.

Then there's the monsters, that I don't really think added anything fresh to the mix. They were (most of them) well drawn, but I don't think they blended well with the preexisting cast. Either they just didn't add anything, or they were just not blending in.

I quite enjoyed the sounds of the SSG, and the rifle was pretty damn cool to use. Though I can't for the life of me understand why they felt it was important to abide by the laws of not copying resources from Doom 2 to Doom1 or VS, but felt it was OK, to take things from the Alpha versions of Doom. But, I digress.

KDIZD was a mammoth of a project, and I don't really think it was a good idea to begin with. But a lot of people loved it, and more power to the guys who worked on it, you certainly made a bigger splash than most people.

I've recently reviewed KDiZD on my web-site, "Outpost of DooM 2": http://www.webalice.it/sposito.lag.

Please, could anybody add a piece of news here on DoomWorld about my last update, quoting the part of my article about my defiance with the KDiZD team and my new appeal to Buzzbomber?

John Smith said:

As much as a plain rating can ever serve to sum up the quality of something, the /idgames database rating for KDiZD does a good job with 3.5 stars. It's a slightly better than average wad, and would not be nearly so memorable if it weren't for the well above average events surrounding it.

I think I enjoyed playing it but I can't quite remember because some doofus deleted what I wrote about it. :[

I like it, still give it a whirl every now and then. I found the gameplay pretty good actually, nothing out of place to doom, and I also like gameplay that makes you think and backtrack. It's just not everyones taste.

Tango said:

I think I enjoyed playing it but I can't quite remember because some doofus deleted what I wrote about it. :[

aye, my reviews get deleted often too - someone moderating Doomworld idgames/ database clearly has a grudge.

I liked the look and feel of it, but I pretty much hated the gameplay. It had it's moments, but overall I really didn't get much enjoyment playing it.

KDiZD was pretty fun to play, but the key/switch hunts were way too long and complicated.

kristus said:

and the rifle was pretty damn cool to use.

What?? There was a rifle?? 'Course I did wonder what all that other ammo was for. Never found it tho. Was it in a secret, or did I just seriously miss something??

You get a chance to find it first in Z1M9 and then again in a secret in Z1M7.

Some of you probably remember me being very outspoken about it but I actually surprisingly liked it. Okay, it didn't live up to the purely arrogant and pompous amount of hype it had, it was far from perfect, and ended up being only just barely above average. But its worth a play. 2 player coop with it isn't bad either - though a little tight on ammo in a few spots.

Also,

I rather liked it. Parts that I didn't like were:
- Some of the superfluous SFX used, like those goofy-looking coronas.
- Monsters like the lion dude. WTF, a shield? Doom demons don't use weapons unless it's directly grafted in their flesh.
- The removed open area from Computer Station.
- That infighting was suppressed.

Gez said:

- That infighting was suppressed.

I'm still amazed that this is still brought up as a negative.
Are players really that reliant on the monsters being utterly moronic?

The monsters would have torn themselves apart if it hadn't been disabled. There was just too many different ones that the player's presence in an area would have been enough to make the monsters kill half their amount in no time.

Graf Zahl said:

I'm still amazed that this is still brought up as a negative.
Are players really that reliant on the monsters being utterly moronic?

It has less to do with the believability of infighting, and more to do with the fact that it's a gameplay element present in classic Doom. While it's understandable why you turned it off, I would argue most felt like you were tampering with a "sacred part" of the Doom experience.

Honestly, there really isn't any good argument for or against it. Considering that Hell as depicted in Doom consists of random mobs and hordes of unrelated monsters who have probably spent most of their time locked in Hell and probably don't get along to begin with, it makes sense. After all, we hardly see anything more sophisticated than mere animals and zombies from Hell's legion, even considering that some of them are cybernetically enhanced. Nor did the creatures really use coordinated group tactics. Hell seemed more content to catch everybody off guard with large quantities of monstrous, powerful beasts.

Graf Zahl said:

I'm still amazed that this is still brought up as a negative.
Are players really that reliant on the monsters being utterly moronic?

It's not a question of skill, but of feeling. The hordes of hell are made of creatures that are pure hatred and cruelty, not teamwork and cooperation. That's it's possible to exploit this against them is part of what makes Doom Doom rather than just-another-monster-shooter.

E2M9 shows that the demons just don't like each others.

Graf Zahl said:

The monsters would have torn themselves apart if it hadn't been disabled. There was just too many different ones that the player's presence in an area would have been enough to make the monsters kill half their amount in no time.

Feh, no. I had edited a bit KDiZD to put infighting back on but doing things like "actor darkimp : doomimp" to put the monsters into families like the hell knight and baron are. The result? There was some infighting going on, but not enough to have half the monsters killing themselves as you pretend.

I didn't mind the lack of infighting, though I have to ask if it would have been possible to categorize the monsters into a few sets, and prevent monsters from infighting with a monster in their own set? Similarly to how, if I remember correctly, monsters don't infight with their own kind. Couldn't something like this be done in ZDoom by having monsters inherit from a base monster that defines which set they belong to?

Edit: Ah, Gez beat me to it!

Snarboo said:

I would argue most felt like you were tampering with a "sacred part" of the Doom experience.

That's the feeling I got, too - and which I don't understand. Why is this such a holy cow that people start whining and complaining when there's so many things that have been changed before in other mods without really bothering anyone?

I think any mod out there has the right to use an engine's features as it sees fit. Normally this doesn't cause an uproar. Why is this particular issue that different that it made so many players hack the mod?

Gez said:
I had edited a bit KDiZD to put infighting back on but doing things like "actor darkimp : doomimp" to put the monsters into families like the hell knight and baron are. The result? There was some infighting going on, but not enough to have half the monsters killing themselves as you pretend.

That's exactly what should have been done. Just taking it out altogether was in my opinion a cheap way of removing the inconsistency of different imps attacking each other and the like, disrupting the gameplay we enjoy and a concept that's essential to the game (that of "tribal" monster types and hellish chaos).

I think any mod out there has the right to use an engine's features as it sees fit.

I agree the right is there, but that doesn't mean some of those uses aren't going to be considered poor choices.