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VinceDSS

request: prheretic

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I think it would seriously make sense to wait for fraggle to complete his Chocolate Heretic and Hexen projects before starting anything of this sort. They would make an ideal base source, rather than starting from scratch on the DOS-only sources that Raven has released and wasting time duplicating fraggle's efforts.

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I agree with Quasar. Also, since this is starting from scratch any demo support for extended engines should be done properly. No "v1.3" that doesn't by guarantee run on v1.3. Instead, demos under limit removing behavior should use a different version number so that the original executable knows they are not for it.

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Quasar said:

I think it would seriously make sense to wait for fraggle to complete his Chocolate Heretic and Hexen projects before starting anything of this sort.

Is there any sort of ETA on that?

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Stilgar said:

Is there any sort of ETA on that?

No. It's a lot of work and I don't know how much time I will be able to dedicate to it in the long term, so it may be a while before there is something functional.

On a positive note, I will say that I've already finished a lot of the hard work that was needed in order to integrate the Raven sources.

You can track the branch here, along with my TODO list for the merge.

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Ah cool, so will Chocolate Doom have Heretic and Hexen? Or are you just combining all three sources and using conditional statements to allow the same source to be compiled into seperate programs? (Or is that possible, or that make sense?)

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myk said:

I agree with Quasar. Also, since this is starting from scratch any demo support for extended engines should be done properly. No "v1.3" that doesn't by guarantee run on v1.3. Instead, demos under limit removing behavior should use a different version number so that the original executable knows they are not for it.

Unfortunately vanilla Heretic and Hexen have no demo version mechanism, so those ports will automatically not be able to discern newer demo formats. In fact I believe that some or possibly all of the Heretic 1.3 IWAD demos are not even from v1.3, as they seem to always go out of sync.

This little quirk was inherited directly from DOOM v1.2 -- IIRC DOOM didn't add a version number to demos until v1.4.

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EarthQuake said:

Ah cool, so will Chocolate Doom have Heretic and Hexen? Or are you just combining all three sources and using conditional statements to allow the same source to be compiled into seperate programs? (Or is that possible, or that make sense?)

There will be separate chocolate-doom, chocolate-heretic and chocolate-hexen binaries. I'm keeping the source code for the three games mostly separate, at least for the time being. They will depend on some common code; this includes stuff like the WAD code, the low level bits that play sound and do the screen mode scaling, the multiplayer code, etc. Essentially all the bits that make up the chocolatey flavour :-)

This creates quite a bit of duplicated code, so it's a bit ugly; other ports like JDoom or ZDoom focus on creating a single engine that supports all three games. However, it's pretty much essential in order to maintain Chocolate Doom's goal of accurately reproducing Vanilla Doom (and now, Heretic and Hexen as well)

I'm currently working on splitting up the common code from the Doom-specific code. Once I've done this, I can start properly integrating the Heretic and Hexen code. This has involved some pretty major refactoring in places; it's rather like I'm tearing the existing codebase in half. However, it's progressing well, as there's now only one file left in the common code to fix up.

kristus said:

Chocolate Strife

Kaiser mentioned a passing interest in doing a Chocolate Strife (ala SvStrife) a few days ago. Once Heretic/Hexen are done, I'd be delighted to see this as part of Chocolate Doom. But let's not get carried away and drift off into the clouds too much :-)

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fraggle said:

Kaiser mentioned a passing interest in doing a Chocolate Strife (ala SvStrife) a few days ago. Once Heretic/Hexen are done, I'd be delighted to see this as part of Chocolate Doom. But let's not get carried away and drift off into the clouds too much :-)

Good luck with that one. ;) It won't be easy because none of the Strife implementations is fully accurate. Wouldn't that be the goal of a 'chocolate' port?

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If not, then it just won't be called a 'chocolate' port. But hey, wouldn't hurt to try as much to accurately reproduce the game.

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fraggle said:

This creates quite a bit of duplicated code, so it's a bit ugly; other ports like JDoom or ZDoom focus on creating a single engine that supports all three games.

Actually, Doomsday does something similar to what you're doing. Some common code (WAD loading, graphics rendering, network, etc) is in Doomsday itself, and it loads plugins of jDoom, jHeretic, and jHexen (jDoom64 is in development) for game-specific code.

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Graf Zahl said:

Good luck with that one. ;) It won't be easy because none of the Strife implementations is fully accurate. Wouldn't that be the goal of a 'chocolate' port?

Indeed. In the case of Strife it may never be possible to get something that is accurate enough for demo playback; however, it can still be accurate in providing the "feel" of the original game, and aspire to be as close as possible to the original game's behavior.

MikeRS said:

Actually, Doomsday does something similar to what you're doing. Some common code (WAD loading, graphics rendering, network, etc) is in Doomsday itself, and it loads plugins of jDoom, jHeretic, and jHexen (jDoom64 is in development) for game-specific code.

Doomsday is fundamentally different (as I understand it, at least), as the majority of the "core" code is shared; the JDoom, JHeretic, JHexen DLLs just define the game behavior.

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Chocolate Heretic and Hexen would definitely tide me over until pr* versions are made. I wish fraggle good luck and perseverance.

Just curious: has Strife's source code been released, or have all Strife-supporting engines merely reverse-engineered it?

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Creaphis said:

has Strife's source code been released, or have all Strife-supporting engines merely reverse-engineered it?


The source code for strife was lost for one reason or another.

The engines that do support it have reversed it afaik.

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Quasar said:
Unfortunately vanilla Heretic and Hexen have no demo version mechanism, so those ports will automatically not be able to discern newer demo formats. In fact I believe that some or possibly all of the Heretic 1.3 IWAD demos are not even from v1.3, as they seem to always go out of sync.

This little quirk was inherited directly from DOOM v1.2 -- IIRC DOOM didn't add a version number to demos until v1.4.

Ah, quite true, I had forgotten that they use the old demo format. And yeah, I can confirm that the three demos in Heretic: Shadow of the Serpent Riders are from the last non-retail Heretic version (1.2).

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myk said:

Ah, quite true, I had forgotten that they use the old demo format. And yeah, I can confirm that the three demos in Heretic: Shadow of the Serpent Riders are from the last non-retail Heretic version (1.2).

I had always wondered about that. Seemed silly that those demos desynced all the time. Weird oversight.

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Quasar said:

Unfortunately vanilla Heretic and Hexen have no demo version mechanism, so those ports will automatically not be able to discern newer demo formats. In fact I believe that some or possibly all of the Heretic 1.3 IWAD demos are not even from v1.3, as they seem to always go out of sync.

This little quirk was inherited directly from DOOM v1.2 -- IIRC DOOM didn't add a version number to demos until v1.4.

Ah, that's reassuring. I was wondering why the demos didn't play back properly :-)

To follow up, I have Chocolate Heretic basically working. There are some issues with the sound that need to be fixed and you have to compile with the multiplayer code disabled for the time being. After that it basically all works. I need to do quite a bit of polishing to get it all working at the same standard as the Doom code is, then I can move on to Hexen.

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Best of luck with that. I would love to play Heretic and Hexen in something other than ZDoom or Dosbox.

One question regarding the eventual Chocolate-Hexen, will it support Audio CD music? I like to use an image of my hexen cd for audio music, it sounds great.

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Mike.Reiner said:

One question regarding the eventual Chocolate-Hexen, will it support Audio CD music? I like to use an image of my hexen cd for audio music, it sounds great.

It's something I've thought about, although I only have the downloaded version of Hexen off Steam. I'll have to look on ebay to see if I can get myself a CD copy :-)

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You're not missing much though. The CD copy just has the idstuff store and cd tracks that are Roland Sound Canvas renderings of the midis from the game.

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leileilol said:

You're not missing much though. The CD copy just has the idstuff store and cd tracks that are Roland Sound Canvas renderings of the midis from the game.

Pretty much, but I find that it sounds much better than either Microsoft's midi synthesizer or the emulated OPL.

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Mike.Reiner said:

Pretty much, but I find that it sounds much better than either Microsoft's midi synthesizer or the emulated OPL.

I prefer this

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I enjoy the midis. I love midi music, it adds to the charm of the game. Some of those tracks I feel are too different in the form of MP3s/OGGs.

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I have the initial version of Chocolate Hexen working. The sound is currently broken and you have to run the game with -nommap. Also, all the demos desync.

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