KDiZD... thoughts?

The Soul Harvester and the Bruiser were easily my favorite new monsters. Very nice design and very memorable monsters, both. (I agree with the consensus that the Deimos Guardian was a tacky addition to the game and felt very out of place. But these creepy imps and terrorbarons? Yum.)

Good mention as well to the mechademons (Maulers, I believe). You can see the Doom 3 influence but they're still the same "vaguely humanoid shaved gorilla" described in the manual.

The Shadow was an interesting concept but seemed a bit unfinished I thought. Reading that it was a first attempt at making an entirely new monster explains why I felt this way.

The Satyr, on the other hand, is a high quality sprite -- but like the Hell Warrior seems a bit thematically inappropriate, not monstrous enough to fit in with the other demons. They worked well enough, but they could have benefited from looking more twisted, more unnatural.

I found the variety of dark imps unnecessary -- should have gone with just the most original design, and given it all three modes of attack IMO.

The stone imp seemed a big pointless as well. I could have understood if it was there simply to be used as a stand-in for the demons, so that in the first three levels we only see imps and zombies before the variety of the demonic army reveals itself; but it's introduced along with demons (and shadows) in Z1M1...

The various new zombies were interesting -- the rapid fire trooper filling a hole between zombieman and chaingunner, the chainsaw zombie really looking like a maniac out of a slash flick, and the rocket zombie being potentially dangerous but also such a treat for infighting-lovers such as me (even when infighting is disabled -- it's the same kind of tactic and footwork that's required to make a rocket zombie blow himself up).

The demon cubes were cool as well, used sparingly as they were. Very creepy little things.

I'm forgetting Hell's Fury. The first one was introduced very well, but meeting it again in later levels wasn't as special. If the body had been a bit more different from its baron base, I think it would have been a much better monster. Maybe a bit skeletal, since its head is a skull? Visually like a mix between baron, revenant and arch-vile?

Any monster I haven't commented on, sorry, you were just that forgettable. :P

myk said:

Stuff about Satyrs

You are, of course, absolutely correct about the traditional mythological role of Satyrs. However, despite his basic "see player, walk towards player, scratch player to death" role in KDiZD, in my mind's eye he was something a little different. I didn't imagine him as particularly sexual (perhaps not having a huge stiffy like they are often shown was part of that) but I did imagine him wandering around the bases playing mischievous tricks. I imagined that it was, perhaps, the satyrs who got in and messed up the computer systems, or perhaps laid some of the traps, or made areas unstable... It was only when I arrived on the scene to spoil his fun that he turned into a hunter-killer. :)

printz said:

2) The game was assuming you were searching for switches because that's what most players were really doing back then, thanks to that scoring system of sorts that would unlock another secret level, a good one at it. People were really motivated to find secrets, so the finding of the Rifle wasn't so improbable.

I still think that assuming it isn't good level design. The BFG9000 was a secret in the original Doom, and it was certainly nice to have, but wasn't necessary for beating the game.

True. In fact it made the Spider Mastermind battle incredibly stupd, which may be another reason the Cyberdemon encounter in E2M8 is so memorable. Actual fighting.

Ry74 said:

I still think that assuming it isn't good level design. The BFG9000 was a secret in the original Doom, and it was certainly nice to have, but wasn't necessary for beating the game.

I agree. You shouldn't put weapons/ammo/health necessary to completing the map in secret areas, IMO. That's just like putting keys and switches necessary to completing levels in secret rooms, since the end result is the same (i.e. you can't win the map until you find the secret, except you die instead of wandering around forever...) If the player needs something to finish the map, then why would you hide it from them? :/
When I test my own maps, I don't even visit any secrets I create.

Back to one of the topics at hand, I tend to agree with the tool-wielding demons being out of place, in general. I'm one of those "demons wouldn't use weapons unless they're grafted into their flesh" people. Also, I agree that demons don't seem very "wonderous." They seem more like the embodiment of evil and the will to kill things.

Death-Destiny said:

I tend to agree with the tool-wielding demons being out of place, in general. I'm one of those "demons wouldn't use weapons unless they're grafted into their flesh" people. Also, I agree that demons don't seem very "wonderous." They seem more like the embodiment of evil and the will to kill things.

A matter of taste I guess. There are certainly plenty of references to demons using weapons (commonly clubs and staffs, but others too) from some of the oldest references right through to the present day.

Consistent with Doom? OK, I'll give you that none of the original Doom demons carry tools - other than implants (unless you count the zombies, which I wouldn't) but I'm OK with that, which is where the matter of taste comes in. :)

I think the Dark Imps were not needed. I've always thought their sprites looked tacky and cheap, and at this point they've been way, way overused. That pink fireball is hideous, too.

I really liked the other "cannon fodder" monsters, though. Most projects with custom monsters seem to add a lot of miniboss/boss monsters which end up turning the game into Quake - lots of "heavy" monsters wandering around which take a lot of time to bring down. Doom (especially Ep1) was more about cutting down waves of smaller enemies.

I hated the Hellwarrior because of that $%&@ Hexen shield. It's the Enemy of Fun™!

The Satyr has kick ass sprites but it's behavior IMO needs something unique that differences it from the Demon variants. Perhaps the ability to collect the life force of dead monsters and use it to create a deadly attack toward the player (using archvile specials and the like, like on Batman DOOM). Or use dead bodies to spawn new Satyrs may be. I think some more speed was needed.

I really like the mod, but IMO on the monster department it'd have been more consistent if there were only the new monsters created just for the mod and dropping these from other mods (unless they're edited in all their frames, not just death sequences).

Vegeta said:

The Satyr has kick ass sprites but it's behavior IMO needs something unique that differences it from the Demon variants. Perhaps the ability to collect the life force of dead monsters and use it to create a deadly attack toward the player (using archvile specials and the like, like on Batman DOOM). Or use dead bodies to spawn new Satyrs may be. I think some more speed was needed.

No, as I find the KDiZD Satyrs too mundane looking. Anyway they're better than Demons because they rarely flinch. They can't be stunned and they're heavier than Demons. It's bad when one gets you cornered, as in Z1M8.

david_a said:

I really liked the other "cannon fodder" monsters, though. Most projects with custom monsters seem to add a lot of miniboss/boss monsters which end up turning the game into Quake - lots of "heavy" monsters wandering around which take a lot of time to bring down. Doom (especially Ep1) was more about cutting down waves of smaller enemies.

Yes yes yes!

And I agree about the dark imps too. Although they were facelifted a bit for KDiZD, I still always see them as, primarily, a bit of a cheap recolour of an imp. Grey recolours are particularly cheap IMO because it's so easy to do with there being so many greys in the Doom palette. We've seen grey imps, grey demons, grey cacos, grey revenants, grey cybies, grey fatsos...

JohnnyRancid said:

Seeing the 'real' boss for the first time, i just peeked at it and said "ughhh.. I quit." I can tell that was a last minute idea and surely wasn't introduced during the early planning stages.

The final boss wasn't a last minute idea at all; it was, in fact, a planned addition throughout most of the project's development. The idea of having another boss after the bruiser brothers was first proposed (by Scuba "Action Doom" Steve, no less) on February 26th 2005. The general idea of a 'huge lava creature' was suggested by nmn a day later, as was the name "Deimos Guardian", this time by Tormentor.

KDIZD wouldn't be released until roughly 2 1/4 years after this initial discussion :).


Some background: Originally, Scuba was going to create the sprites, but neither he nor Vader had the time; nmn volunteered, and had some awesome concept pictures, but ended up not really having enough time either; so in the end, rather than do proper sprites, he did a 3D rendering instead

I have no doubt that if the boss had used Scuba sprites, or nmn's original concept, it would have had far more fans :).

EDIT: here's Scuba concept:

http://action.mancubus.net/images/magmantis3.png

And here's nmn's:

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/1959/monsta7jw.jpg

Scuba's concept, if done in a suitably doomy style, would have been great. Nmn's design doesn't really convince me, though.

NiGHTMARE said:

EDIT: here's Scuba concept:

http://action.mancubus.net/images/magmantis3.png

And here's nmn's:

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/1959/monsta7jw.jpg

Scuba's concept is good and cool. But not very Doomy (IMO).

NMN's is just bad. :/

NiGHTMARE said:

nmn volunteered, and had some awesome concept pictures, but ended up not really having enough time either; so in the end, rather than do proper sprites, he did a 3D rendering instead

Oh, and not to trample over NMN's artistic ability any further. I'd like to clear up this misconception. Sprites are done properly from proper source material, or proper pixel painting.
A proper model, made into sprites by a proper sprite artist. Will be ... proper.
Most people (in the community) who make sprites from models however, do this by ripping off other games models and not doing an even remotely good job of it.

Even though its head is different, with its arms spread like that the magmantis reminds me of the Quake boss (for E1).

Yeah, Scuba Steve's concept art of the Magmantis does remind me abit of Chthon.

About the "tool-wielding" demons;
While I agree, that it might not be the most fitting thing for the Phobos setting, I like to think of them just as other infested creatures!
After all, the demons infested humans wich also still hold their weapons, so who says that hell's forces didn't invade other races and planets in the past and included the posessed members of these species into their army?

I guess it's all about how open minded you're about expanding the Doom-universe beyond what is given to us through the original material!
I for myself love to think about this kind of stuff...

Is there any other sketch like that we could have a look at?

I dunno, as much as it may be interesting to have other tool wielding demons with swords and shields, it really didn't grab me. I say, save it for another project with another concept. Every single demon had higher technology than Mars or an equalized one.

Repentance said:

Yeah, Scuba Steve's concept art of the Magmantis does remind me abit of Chthon.

To me it just looks like something out of The Wind Waker.

I enjoyed it mainly because it brought the classic levels to the zdoom engine and made them realistic.

My only dislikes in the game were that, some areas were WAY too dark (Z1M7 was dark almost throughout the entire level!), and I wasn't fond of the grenade launcher.

Yeah, the grenade launcher's physics are weird. It falls down to the ground instantly unless you aim just about straight up, and if it encounters even the slightest ledge on the ground it bounces backward.

Repentance said:

I dunno, as much as it may be interesting to have other tool wielding demons with swords and shields, it really didn't grab me. I say, save it for another project with another concept. Every single demon had higher technology than Mars or an equalized one.

Quake goes for gothic/medieval stuff, and its demons go accordingly - such as the Hell Knights (exception is the Ogre but let's forget about him for now).

DOOM goes for a more futuristic feeling so the demons ought to have more modern weaponry, IMO.

pizzabob18 said:

I enjoyed it mainly because it brought the classic levels to the zdoom engine and made them realistic.

My only dislikes in the game were that, some areas were WAY too dark (Z1M7 was dark almost throughout the entire level!), and I wasn't fond of the grenade launcher.

I dunno, I'd consider Z1M7 to be one of my favorite KDiZD maps. It uses darkness and lighting contrast well, IMO, to create a great atmosphere and visual style.

Creaphis said:

Yeah, the grenade launcher's physics are weird. It falls down to the ground instantly unless you aim just about straight up, and if it encounters even the slightest ledge on the ground it bounces backward.

Something that's often overlooked: the grenade launcher has an alt-fire mode.

I must be the only one who couldn't find any difference between the two modes. :s

NiGHTMARE said:

EDIT: here's Scuba concept:

http://action.mancubus.net/images/magmantis3.png

And here's nmn's:

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/1959/monsta7jw.jpg

Scuba's concept looks bad, like a cow, and also like a model rip-off. Nmn's looks better. Can't say much about the final cut, however. But the enemy was a good boss and I would like to see one more in TSoZD, after the (super) cyberdemon.

StoneFrog said:

Quake goes for gothic/medieval stuff, and its demons go accordingly - such as the Hell Knights (exception is the Ogre but let's forget about him for now).

DOOM goes for a more futuristic feeling so the demons ought to have more modern weaponry, IMO.

Exactly, Quake would be a perfect example.

printz said:

Scuba's concept looks bad, like a cow, and also like a model rip-off. Nmn's looks better. Can't say much about the final cut, however. But the enemy was a good boss and I would like to see one more in TSoZD, after the (super) cyberdemon.

There's going to be a TSoZD? That would be more than awesome.

printz said:

I would like to see one more in TSoZD, after the (super) cyberdemon.

I think having a completely from-scratch Cyberdemon with multiple attacks (Q4 Markon-style attacks, anyone, without the Strogg-iness) would be better than having a from-scratch Cyberdemon and a new Deimos Guardian-style boss.

Ghastly_dragon said:

I think having a completely from-scratch Cyberdemon with multiple attacks (Q4 Markon-style attacks, anyone, without the Strogg-iness) would be better than having a from-scratch Cyberdemon and a new Deimos Guardian-style boss.

Agreed. I actually really liked the ending to KDiZD, but these episode remakes don't all need to end in the same way.

Random thought: z2m8 should begin in a room with four splattered cyberdemons adorning the walls...

NiGHTMARE said:

Something that's often overlooked: the grenade launcher has an alt-fire mode.

What.

Edit: Alright, I tested the alt-fire, and it gives more velocity to the grenade, which helps a bit. This raises the question of why the slow mode even exists. It certainly shouldn't have been the primary fire mode, on a mod where the player has no reason to expect secondary attacks on weapons.