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Espi

Santa Claus will take you to hell!

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I am going to go with my old standby that any place without these people really can't be that bad. Hell included.

Also, I lol'd at the "GOD HATES XMAS" signs. God hates the holiday that he created. Right.

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I doubt God has any feelings for this dubiously commercial holiday.

And yes God hates XMAS. Christians view it as a term for endorsing the holiday while rejecting the Christian element.

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Actually, an X shaped cross has been used for a very long time to represent Christ in as much as the Greek letter chi, which is X shaped, was taken to stand for Christ. Since ancient times, churches have used the chi-rho (or labarum) symbol (a superimposition of the first two Greek letters of Christ - chi looking like a cross and rho a bit like a p) to represent Christ. In Christian art, X, XP (nothing to do with Microsoft) and the superimposed chi-rho have been used extensively to represent Christ. Examples of this can be seen all over the world from present day orthodox churches to ancient stones in my own country of Scotland. You might guess that I did a study of ancient Christian stones when working at a school in the South West of Scotland. :P

So, any Christian worth their salt should know that X is an acceptable abbreviation for Christ and it has been for many, many hundreds of years. It is a modern misinterpretation that Xmas is a way of taking the Christ out of Christmas.


[edit] Of course, none of that has anything to do with the Christian religion hi-jacking the mid-Winter festivals (which went under a variety of names) celebrated in most ancient cultures and changing them to a celebrtion of the birth of Christ. It's not mere coincidence that Christmas is a few days after the shortest day in the Northern hemisphere. [/edit]

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Enjay said:
Actually, an X shaped cross has been used for a very long time to represent Christ in as much as the Greek letter chi, which is X shaped, was taken to stand for Christ.

If God wanted us to speak Greek, He wouldn't have written the Bible in English!

Oh, wait...

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Yes, yes it is.

Enjay said:

So, any Christian worth their salt should know that X is an acceptable abbreviation for Christ and it has been for many, many hundreds of years.


Unfortunately, members of Westboro Baptist Church aren't worth very much salt at all.

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The Yule Tree, hanging all kinds of stuff, red&green, lights, giving gifts etc. are all originally Pagan Yule traditions that Christianity assimilated. If you think of it, it's pretty funny that Christianity is responsible for spreading Pagan traditions.

PS. Screw Jesus Christ.

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John Smith said:

I am going to go with my old standby that any place without these people really can't be that bad. Hell included.

Also, I lol'd at the "GOD HATES XMAS" signs. God hates the holiday that he created. Right.


God did not "create" Christmas.

It is generally accepted amongst historians, Christian scholars, and even the clergy that Christ was *not* born on the 25th December. Sometime in September is the most generally accepted time, but some argue against this. In fact, they cannot even agree on an exact *year*... 1 AD is certainly not a given.

Numerous other cultures and religions celebrated a festival or holiday at this time of year long before Christianity even existed, such as the Babylonians, Romans, historical Germanic people, and ancient celts. Most of the traditions associated with Christmas actually come from these earlier holidays; for example, gift-giving, was present in both the Babylonian feast of the Son of Isis, and the Roman festival of Saturnalia (later Dies Natalis Solis Invicti).

The feast of the Son of Isis was celebrated on the 25th December, and while Saturnalia occured slightly earlier than Christmas, on the 17th December, the later celebration of the God of the Sun, Solis Invicti, was celebrated on the 25th. In fact, the main reason the birth of Christ is celebrated on the 25th December is becausee, in 350 AD, Pope Julius I wanted to make Christianity as appealing to pagan Romans as possible. Knowing that their favourite holiday would not be taken away from them helped make the recently legalized religion a tad enticing :).

The everegreen tree (also important to druids), carol singing, mistletoe, and the Yule log are all said to be derived from the Germanic festival, which was known as "Yule" and was probably a celebration of the god Odin. There are also numerous parallels between Santa Claus and Odin, who of course was a major figure in Germanic religious traditions.

Partying and feasting were an aspect of pretty much all pre-Christian Winter festivals :).

Incidentally, Easter also "just happens" to coincide with numerous earlier, Pagan festivals.

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Quiet I know all that. Christmas (and Hanukkah, and various other holidays) just happen to be right pressed up next to the winter solstice in the Northern Hemisphere, and its about as much coincidence as the fact that should you be taken to porking a lot of women it is likely to make you a daddy NiGHTMARE. However, if you're going to be a pedant, I can easily argue that God was responsible for the Christian celebration called Christmas, as He sent His son* and yadda yadda yadda. The fact that the date of celebration is different from when it actually happened is irrelevant to the fact He is responsible for Christmas coming about.

*Post assumes that you buy into Christianity, which Christians do, and since they celebrate the holiday....

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Unfortunately, it seems they were right.

Seriously though, it's very hard for me to see how Christmas really has very much to do with christianity at all. Look at the images you get from a Google image search for "christmas", for example. Obviously this is a bit contrived, but it gives some insight into the imagery that we associate with Christmas. Snow and snowmen, Christmas trees, holly, fairy lights and decorations, candles, Santa Claus. None of these have anything to do with christianity or Jesus as far as I can tell.

It could be argued that there is a relation between the gift giving at Christmas and the various gifts supposedly brought to Jesus after his birth. But even that seems like a rather tenuous link considering what our gift-giving rituals actually involve.

I'm not a Christian but I have no qualms about celebrating Christmas for these reasons - for me it is just part of the culture that I live in. Indeed, perhaps the real question is why do Christians celebrate it?

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NiGHTMARE said:

Incidentally, Easter also "just happens" to coincide with numerous earlier, Pagan festivals.


to be more specific, easter is taken from the celebration called Ostara. it's a celebration of the fertility goddess Eostre (which is pronounced east-ra. hmmmmm...), who may have originally been Figga, Freya or Hulda. Like most other pagan holidays, it was christianized. all the symbols and icons of the old ways were kept (ie: eggs and rabbits for easter, ornamented trees and mistletoe for x-mas) but the meanings behind them were changed to reflect the christian mythos.

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Enjay said:

It seems that the WBC may now be able to see a bit more eye to eye with the Catholic church too:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7796663.stm


You know, I find the Pope to be more tolerable than most groups. Mostly because Pope said it, therefore it's so, only applies to the Vatican City as far as governing bodies go. And Vatican City exists specifically for Catholics. Whereas here in Utah when the mormon church says its so the state legislature bends over backwards to kiss the ass of the mormon church to make it so into law (see: 2009 smoking ban in private clubs).

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You're lucky you don't know what kind of situation we've had in Poland for almost 20 years. The words 'the Pope said' would have a whole new meaning to you.

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John Smith said:

You know, I find the Pope to be more tolerable than most groups. Mostly because Pope said it, therefore it's so, only applies to the Vatican City as far as governing bodies go. And Vatican City exists specifically for Catholics. Whereas here in Utah when the mormon church says its so the state legislature bends over backwards to kiss the ass of the mormon church to make it so into law (see: 2009 smoking ban in private clubs).


The Vatican City is not just for Catholics. It's supposed to be the hub for Christianity no matter how evangelical and new age they are. The pope has the responsibly for both Catholics and Protestant and branched relations.

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What? I thought the concept of protestantism is that the Pope is full of bullshit.

And at the very least, the Baptists, Anglicans, Episcopalians, and Mormons hate Catholics.

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Technician said:

The pope has the responsibly for both Catholics and Protestant and branched relations.



That's only the Vatican's standpoint. Most Protestants (and even many Catholics) will disagree with that.

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Technician said:

The Vatican City is not just for Catholics. It's supposed to be the hub for Christianity no matter how evangelical and new age they are. The pope has the responsibly for both Catholics and Protestant and branched relations.

That's nothing more than theocratic imperialism or humbug. Having failed to supress Protestantism by force of arms does the Vatican now claim to have won the peace?

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Danarchy said:

What? I thought the concept of protestantism is that the Pope is full of bullshit.


True to a degree. Protestants only reject Catholicism for its play by the book game play. The key to Protestantism is one can naturally learn Gods teachings through self-exploration. Catholicism is learning God only through teachings of a vessel (priest).

Even if Protestants hate the Pope and the Vatican, the Vatican is still in control of all original artifacts and relics which are both needed for Catholic and Protestant altars (Though the Protestants view the Body and Blood as ritual rather then literal.)

GreyGhost said:

That's nothing more than theocratic imperialism or humbug. Having failed to supress Protestantism by force of arms does the Vatican now claim to have won the peace?


By force? The battle between the Orange and the Green is pure pride and hatred for the British. And the Vatican is forced to accept both parties. It can't afford not to. Why? Because fifty percent of America is evangelical and most of that profit goes into the denominations pocket.

And may I remind that both financial from both denominations go to the Vatican.

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NiGHTMARE said:

It is generally accepted amongst historians, Christian scholars, and even the clergy that Christ was *not* born on the 25th December. Sometime in September is the most generally accepted time, but some argue against this. In fact, they cannot even agree on an exact *year*... 1 AD is certainly not a given.

Gospel has shepherds out at night with their sheep, and even in Palestine that's not something that happens in winter when it's cold.

fraggle said:

Obviously this is a bit contrived, but it gives some insight into the imagery that we associate with Christmas. Snow and snowmen, Christmas trees, holly, fairy lights and decorations, candles, Santa Claus. None of these have anything to do with christianity or Jesus as far as I can tell.

Santa Claus is Saint Nicholas, even though he's been quite bastardized since (and most people in English-speaking nations now think "Santa" is his first name...).

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Graf Zahl said:

That's only the Vatican's standpoint. Most Protestants (and even many Catholics) will disagree with that.

Goes to show how fucking ignorant I am. Incidentally, I somehow already had the similar thought in my head that the Pope would deal with Catholics over Protestants being that we are so "new age" and branched off from the original religion. But isn't the Pope supposed to be open to all Christians, Catholics and Protestants alike?

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Kirby said:

But isn't the Pope supposed to be open to all Christians, Catholics and Protestants alike?

Well, sure. (And you're forgetting the Orthodox, and minor other branches like the Copts.) "Catholic" actually mean universal.

The issue isn't so much that he refuses to consider them part of his flock as that they protest being part of his flock.

Then there are a few doctrinal differences. For example, if you do not accept Mary's Assumption to Heaven, you are automatically excommunicated (cast out of the Catholic Church).

And of course, most Catholics respect religious freedom and thus do not consider Protestants as stray sheep but as people following a different denomination.

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Technician said:

Even if Protestants hate the Pope and the Vatican, the Vatican is still in control of all original artifacts and relics which are both needed for Catholic and Protestant altars (Though the Protestants view the Body and Blood as ritual rather then literal.)

What the Hell are you talking about? For one thing, most of those so-called "artifacts and relics" were fabricated by pardoners and the like in the middle ages. Secondly, I've never heard of any Christians, at least not Protestants, needing any specific relics for their churches.

And may I remind that both financial from both denominations go to the Vatican.

Err? I really doubt that any protestant churches give their money to the Pope. Unless this is some kind of law in Ireland or something.

Also, as someone mentioned before, there are denominations just as old as Roman Catholicism (Eastern Orthodox, Coptic, Assyrian Church) which have less to do with it than the Protestants do. Most of them have their own holy leaders who are more important to them than the Pope.

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