Doom fails to make list

PhilibusMo said:
But E4 contains my least favourite stock doom level, perfect hatred, i dont think that level could have been much worse and was just really really annoying.

Nah... it's by a stretch one of the better levels in the episode. Both Romero levels are nice. The weaker ones in my opinion are E4M5 and E4M7. I like E4M3 a bit more, but more texture variety and less powerups would have improved it. E4M1 might be a bit tight for a starter level, and E4M4 could have been harder. Maybe these two (incidentally both by American) could have been swapped, assuming a few item changes. E4M9 was okay but a bit too symmetrical. I think had the id guys done the whole episode by themselves, the result would have been better, but it's just an additional episode they slapped in for kicks as an aftermath.

The last level is not the easiest, but it's not as tough as E4M6, E4M2 and E4M1. It's tougher than or equal to the others, because the many hit scanners (shotgun guys and spiderdemon) can be relatively damaging in the more spacious areas it includes, with the occasional baron to take you unawares. It does seem kind of easy when you play through the whole thing, because by then you usually have quite a surplus of ammo.

Only Sandy Peterson maps will suffice as awesome!

Talking about Sandy Petersen, while I can see where Enjay is coming from regarding first impressions, if any first level from the DOOM series really deserves to be on a top list that's Entryway, for its impact on deathmatch through the years.

Perhaps MAP01 doesn't deserve to be on this list either because of Lut's reason: any other halfway decent MAP01 could have influenced deathmatch just as much. I could be wrong about that, but by any modern set of standards, MAP01 is a horrid dm map. It's cramped, it has no flow, it has bizarre weapon placement, and every duel played on it turns into two players firing around the same corner with rockets or BFGs, just hoping that the other player will be there at that exact instant. Booooring.

myk said:

Talking about Sandy Petersen, while I can see where Enjay is coming from regarding first impressions, if any first level from the DOOM series really deserves to be on a top list that's Entryway, for its impact on deathmatch through the years.

The Dwango 5 modification brings back memories.

Creaphis said:
I could be wrong about that,

I think you are indeed, but you're taking two facts and assuming these automatically make it popular for DM but not a good level: a) 1st level in the game, b) it wasn't designed specifically for DM. Intentionality or initial purpose is not a defining factor in judging what makes a great level. You can't prove any other level would have stuck as a playing field the way Map01 has. E1M1 sure hasn't, and neither have any other levels in the games. Just looking at its history more or less proves it's exceptional, regardless of exactly what reasons went into that. That it's the first level in the game definitely does not explain why it got played so intensively by dedicated players.

One of the reasons open maps* are more usual as custom deathmatch levels is that they are easier to make, NOT because they are better. especially for 1-on-1. In some ways they are less interesting, because they don't pressure the two players into facing each other like cornered cats. And since they are open, items are fairly accessible to both players most of the time, killing a lot of strategical possibilities. So little success was attained at making closed 1-on-1 levels that popular ones are rarer. Many attempts get people going back to Map01 for that type of play. That means it's very good for that. Could other designs have also become great Map01 DM levels? Perhaps, but they weren't, and Entryway was.

* I mean anything that allows the players to escape from most areas.

Well, alright. MAP01's appeal has been a bit of a mystery for me, so it's good to have that clarified. Still, the power that popularity has to reinforce popularity is considerable. MAP01 in Doom2.wad really is the most natural slot to congregate in without the existence of high quality deathmatch wads and ports, beating out e1m1 as most Doomers would have focused their attention on Doom 2 after its release. This somewhat-captive audience spent enough time in Entryway to learn all its tricks and subtleties, and became very proficient on that map, making it the canonical map where a Doomer's true mettle would be measured. This encouraged more players to practice on that map, and so forth.

Entryway may be the best of all possible MAP01's, and I'll grant that it deserves recognition whether it is or not, but I can't help but imagine that any other remotely deathmatch-able level in the MAP01 slot would still garner praise for its ideal gameplay style today, even if it and it and 'Way were night and day.

I used to deathmatch duel quite a lot and I never liked Entryway for the reasons Creaphis mentioned. I preferred Underhalls, The Focus and Dead Simple. In Doom I thought Hanger was much better to play than Entryway.

The first map for Duke3D was great too (deathmatch or single player). This maybe should have been on the list.

purist said:

In Doom I thought Hanger was much better to play than Entryway.

Not that I'm a big DM-er but I agree with that. I've had far more time and fun in E1M1 (and I like E1M2 as well) in DM than I have in MAP01 which I find quite a boring DM level.

I must disagree. Back in the day (1996-ish), MAP01 was THE deathmatch level. It is a weird design, but, like myk said, it forces players into close proximity. Every moment on that level was either kill of be killed. No wasted moments, and everything had a brutal simplicity about it.

Here are (some of) the reasons that I think made it so good.

1) If you knew how to listen, you could tell exactly where your opponents were at all times.
-Hear a door opening? There are only two places your opponent could be, and if you are at one of them, well you know exactly where he is.
-Hear a series of rapid beeps.. well your opponent is picking up the blue health vials outside the rocket launcher area.
-Hear a SSG or a rocket launcher or a plasma gun? you know where your opponent must have got those from...
-there is only one armor on the level, so you know when that is picked up.

2)It was intensely tactical. Every room on the level became its own mini arena. The start area was one, the green armor room with its two pillars was another, the connecting corridors were a third, the main area with the plasma gun was the fourth and the outside area was the fifth.

2a)It was not possible to "circle" the level, doing power runs (picking up everything as you go), because the level more or less forms a series of points from the start to the exit. To get from the BFG to the Green armor to the plasma gun, you have to fight your way through the very thick of the action. There is no other way round the level. Throw in 4 players and it is virtually impossible to continually circle the level and grab all of the good gear..

3)every item/weapon worth having involved a certain risk to getting it.
-the BFG could only be got from the start area (as could one of the rocket launchers and one of the SSG's) and could not be picked up during regular play.
-Getting the other rocket launcher meant stepping into this tiny room that was instant death if anyone saw you go in there. A rocket or an SSG into that little entrance could hardly miss.
-Getting the plasma gun meant either going up that lift, or getting a lucky strafe run down that long corridor.
-The Green armor tended to be out of the way, as was the three medikits in the exit room.

4)limited health and armor meant that no one could really dominate, at least not for any length of time. One good BFG and your unbeatable frag run was all over.

5)Limited ammo meant that no one could just spam BFG or rockets across the level. If you lived long enough, you always would up having to cycle your weapons.

6)coz of the last two reasons listed, the single barrel shotty was a perfectly legitimate weapon on this level, more lethal at range than the SSG and a great finishing weapon.

7)Corridors covered in corpses always looks cool, and even cooler when they are not your own...

Incidently, id did design Doom2's maps with deathmatch in mind, and on this map, it shows. I seem to recall reading an interview with Todd Hollenshead (this was years ago) where he said that the deathmatch aspect was kept firnly in mind during the process of designing the levels. In fact, it seems to me that this map was designed as a deathmatch map first and had single player worked in afterwards. I don't know that, but it sure seems that way to me.

Sorry, this is probably tl;dr. But I've typed it now... And I couldn't let it be said that MAP01 is not one of the premier Deathmatch maps ever made, and just another reason why it should have been included on that stoopid websites list of great first levels.

Quasar said:

Though the first time you see that Imp up on the ledge is pretty memorable. "WTF IS THAT??"

I agree with this, the memory of being 6 years old and trying Doom for the first time is so fresh. I died so many times trying to pass that first imp before the exit door (after frantically trying to dodge the imp on the ledge and stay out of the poison). After seeing 3 shots didn't kill it, I'd run in a state of panic and confusion, getting mauled by the darned thing multiple times.

But what really gave me a heart attack was when the one on the ledge would miraculously make his way down and attack me from the back.

Took a while to master killing imps.

I'm disappointed Doom didn't make the list, e1m1 is something I could never forget.

PhilibusMo said:

yeh agreed, E4 was the least good of all the episodes. My personal favourite was E3. But E4 contains my least favourite stock doom level, perfect hatred, i dont think that level could have been much worse and was just really really annoying. Also is it just me or is the last level of E4 the easiest one and is even a pretty easy walk through from a pistol start?

IMO Perfect Hatred is the best level in E4 and one of the best levels in the whole ultimate doom series. It seems unbeatable tough at first, but on the other hand the balance is quite fair once you worked out the right tactics and all those tricks. Of course the level is nothing for beginners, but this is the fourth episode and not the first. The same holds for E4M6 (the castle, i forgot how that one was named). I consider them both very good maps, because they provide a nice contrast to this "walk through corridors and kill your enemies one by one with your shotgun" scheme of Doom 1. For the same reason i love E3M6.

On the other hand, i can't stand E4M1. Can't tell you why, because the design is nice and the concept to base a complete level on teleport attacs is quite interessting, but i still hate it. Maybe because fighting the four barons at the NIN secret sucks so much without amunition. And all the remaining E4 levels feel far too easy once you made it through E4M2 (except you pistol start them).

Eventually I learned both E4M2 and E4M6 were Romero levels. What a nice coincidence.

Doc Faust.

Doctor Faust said:

The same holds for E4M6 (the castle, i forgot how that one was named). I consider them both very good maps, because they provide a nice contrast to this "walk through corridors and kill your enemies one by one with your shotgun" scheme of Doom 1. For the same reason i love E3M6.

Eventually I learned both E4M2 and E4M6 were Romero levels. What a nice coincidence.

Doc Faust.

See now thats odd as E4M6 I also despise, I think its to do with the hazard floors, when they are excessive they just really get on my nerves. I can't stand it when you don't have a reasonable chance of completeing a level first try as you don't know where u are going, your radiation suit runs out and then you die, running around looking for a teleporter or lift tryign not to be shot by hit scanners. Thankgod they didn't have the chain-gun zombie at that point or these two levels would be completely intollerable. Although I have to agree E4M1 was too difficult for a first level and the teleport encounters, althought they may have seemed like a novel idea just begin to get irritating, very quickly.

On another note I prefere E1M1 to MAP01 as I think it is just more memorable, the way it looked and felt was much better than MAP01 in my oppinion, it all just seemed 'right'. Doom 2 didn't really get going for me until Underhalls.

To me, the first level of Doom 1 was not memorable but it was enjoyable, yet the first level of Doom 2 was great and memorable.

Not saying I dont like Doom 1, but it seemed to drag on for a first level and seemed pretty clustered and random.

avery1555 said:

Not saying I dont like Doom 1, but it seemed to drag on for a first level and seemed pretty clustered and random.

Yeah... those fifteen seconds just drag on forever.

A new guy playing does take longer than that, as he usually visits various areas slowly before reaching the exit. Not that I think this in itself makes it better or worse, but it's true that Hangar can take longer to complete than Entryway; the speed record is almost twice the time (9 instead of 5).

Creaphis said:

Yeah... those fifteen seconds just drag on forever.

Compared to Doom 2 (About 5 seconds LOL) I agree but it really depends what your going for.

Unlocking all the secrets for a "perfect" play through takes a couple minutes again comparing to Doom 2, which has about 1 switch.

Lol, but I see what your saying.

I hate E1M1. So much.

I think Kyka's analysis of Map01 was a pretty good one. The "horseshoe" design of MAP01 is a good one for DM, although there are very few DM maps employing this linear design. I've made a few inspired by MAP01 but I never released any of them. I often try to tweak map01 to improve it for DM, but MAP01 is pretty much perfect for DM as it is (and I don't think that's by accident). As an SP map I never cared much for it, but seeing it doubles as an SP and DM map, for that novel reason alone perhaps it should have been considered for the list.

@Myk et. al: E4M5 was prolly one of my favorite from episode 4 because it had an intersting layout and atopsher, even if it uses all one texture (which I often poo poo) E4M6 is killer--never really liked that map. I like maps that have progression rather than are giant towers like E4M2 and E4M6. E4M9 was the weakest of the episode for me; very bland atmosphere and poor use of symmetry.

Try the two Romero levels (E4M2 and E4M6) in cooperative. They become pretty intense because of their spacious but unified layout. They are kind of like one big room, in a way, even if they have peripheral sections. Coordinating the crossfire (I mean in coop where friendly fire hurts your friend) and optimizing the attack become pretty intense. The other levels are generally more standard. You can more easily keep the two players in different paths where each independently wipes out some enemies. E4M1 and E4M4 are also rather compact, but don't offer so much interaction as Romero's. It's a fun episode to play with another player, in any case.

Kyka said:

Incidently, id did design Doom2's maps with deathmatch in mind, and on this map, it shows. I seem to recall reading an interview with Todd Hollenshead (this was years ago) where he said that the deathmatch aspect was kept firnly in mind during the process of designing the levels. In fact, it seems to me that this map was designed as a deathmatch map first and had single player worked in afterwards. I don't know that, but it sure seems that way to me.

i get this impression too as the rocket launcher niche serves no particular purpose in single player and the courtyard looks like having been added just to give the player some imps to shoot.

the map design works well only in doom2's deathmatch. being such a popular map (what's with that random site's madness and blasphemy? :p), remakes were quickly made for every game after doom, but usually looked very plain and played much poorer than the original.

generally, i like maps where the player can see items but not access them immediately (think soulsphere on a pillar in e1m3) or get a glimpse of the level through windows, just as in e1m1. looking into the courtyard was the first thing i did as a newbie, and i immediately hoped i could get out there somehow.

Torr Samaho said:

generally, i like maps where the player can see items but not access them immediately (think soulsphere on a pillar in e1m3) or get a glimpse of the level through windows, just as in e1m1. looking into the courtyard was the first thing i did as a newbie, and i immediately hoped i could get out there somehow.

I agree with this 100%. Allowing the player to see something that they'll be able to access later, whether it be a secret or just a later part of the map's main path, really does a lot to increase the perception of 3D in a map layout and add interest.

I also think it's a good idea to have windows that look out into areas you can't get to. Like for example, some horror styled maps will have a door slightly cracked open where you can see blood splashed on the walls and a hanging corpse. You can't go in that room but it's certainly interesting to see whats in there.

There was also a part in Kama Sutra where you fight a cyberdemon on a damaged road, and above the road it looks like there's a highway above that branches out over an ocean of nukage. You can't actually follow the bridge out to where it goes but it certainly makes it feel like there is a world surrounding the playing area.

Ammo and health items are obviously a give away that it's possible to get out there, so putting those in an inaccessible area would be taunting the player.

EDIT: This list essentially is retarded in the sense that it only left room for modern games anyway. I seriously took about 10 minutes to even visualize what the fuck the first levels looked like in most of these games. I still can't even remember what happens in the beginning of Gears of War, or even Half-life. It took me like 15 minutes to remember bungee jumping off the dam in Goldeneye.

The most recognizable first levels of all time really should be early nintendo games. Double Dragon., Contra, Zelda, Bionic Commando, hell I didn't even play these games much at all, but if you asked me to draw the whole sidescrolling level with a pencil and paper I'm pretty sure I'll draw at least 60% of it correctly.

I didn't RTFA, but Dead Space? Seriously? That game was good, but the first level was full of fucking suck. "OMG DISMEMBER THEM." "I BET U SHOOD DISMEMBER THEM." "OH SHIT THEY DON'T DIE UNLESS YOU DISMEMBER THEM!" They basically repeated how to kill zombies over about 80 times until you felt like a retard for playing the game in the first place, then went back to third person system shock-y goodness.