A small (though very long) rant about custom doom levels in general.

@Kyka - The article was Creaphis' idea, I proposed "reviewing" them.

Another classic-style map fan here. I don't mind detail so long as the frame rate doesn't drop dramatically, not a fan of invasion or slaughter maps - maps that rely on little more than twitch factor have little replay value for me. While the Doom engine's a far from ideal choice for maps based on real-life settings - especially if you stick to the default textures - it's well suited for monumental and imaginative architecture like Eternal's Gravity.
I wonder how long the Doom mapping community would have lasted if there was an inflexible orthodoxy dictating the style that maps had to conform to? Variety is the spice of life!

Antroid said:

To sum it up, i dislike:
-overdetail (a lot of people do it seems, but i call a lot more stuff overdetail. I remember even Complexity sucks being way too overdetailed for some reason);
-generic and unexplained setting (although i don't consider the themes of doom1&2 generic, just classic. Abstract castles on the other hand are generic);
-slaughterfest gameplay, with nearly all the guns/powerups/enemies being thrown at you in the very first levels;
-surprise rape ambushes which you have to know of beforehand to survive;
-ethnic level themes like egypt (very subjective and doesn't really belong on the list);
-"epicness" with ogg music, army battles and giant realistic buildings/stuff (also scripted events);
-heavy use of soureport stuff like slopes, glass, water etc.

heh don't forget the people who feel they have to stuff 20 Cyberdemons in a level to make it interesting. a monster thats suppose to be really rare. i hated the last 10 levels of scythe because of this.

Some of those things i do like though, for example cool story scripting or some generic settings such as castles or in some cases but not often.... what you call "epicness"

Having said that i am a big fan of classic Wads too. 2 of my favorites that come to mind are Biowar and dot.

If a wad could cause this imaginary conversation between myself an someone else, then in my opinion it's a great wad:
Someone: "What are you playing?"
Me: "Doom"
Someone: "...that's not Doom, what are you talking about?"

Though I don't mean they would have to be total conversions, as long as they totally break and mangle the conventional Doom gameplay into something new, even if they retain all the old graphics that "someone else" would still recognize as being part of Doom. Sure just normal maps can be good too, but there's nothing else like seeing what completely new gameplay you can do with an old game like this.

Hellbent said:

The sudden appearance of flesh where the yellow key is on level 4 is out of place.

Those flesh bits were rock textured, originally. Then I got this crazy idea of trying the skin textures on them, and I liked the result. I agree that they're a bit out of place, but I liked them too much to dump them.

Espi said:

Those flesh bits were rock textured, originally. Then I got this crazy idea of trying the skin textures on them, and I liked the result. I agree that they're a bit out of place, but I liked them too much to dump them.

They're definitely cool looking and well done. I just would have preferred a more graduated progression into hellish theme. I started playing the episode yesterday. I had to cheat a little to find the secret level.

The secret level was awesome. A true fortress of mystery. That's where I'm at in the episode at the moment.

I think I actually managed to find that the secret level (and that easter egg) legitimately. The soul-sphere secret just took me a bit longer to figure out than the others.

The progression to the hellish theme felt right to me - I don't even remember this notable yellow key room. Maybe I'll look it up.

I like those screenshots. Pretty simple maps with clever use of textures. I also like the new graphics. Sometimes just seeing a new sprite made from scratch in doom once in a while adds great nostalgia to a wad. Even if it's as simple as those tree things in the second screenshot, or recolored imps in the fourth.

I once was thinking about making a wad that consisted of mostly semi-decent maps, but redrawing all the monster sprites from scratch. Essentially the monsters will look all the same, except with slight tweaks drawing attention to features I notice most in monsters to give them a newer look. Kinda like the doom monsters in Doom64.

Pretty simple maps with clever use of textures.

Would you mind to point out a few examples? I'm curious as to what did you find clever :)

Even if it's as simple as those tree things in the second screenshot, or recolored imps in the fourth.

I definitely can say what was the most fun moment of mapping this so far. It was when i added recolored helmets and potions (+2 and +3 variations). It really does add some nostalgia effect, and replacing standart +1 pickups with those every once in a while is a lot of fun for some reason.

Your English is really good Antroid. I just wanted to say that, and also that it's "standard" not "standart." ;) Those screenies look a bit expansive for my tastes.

You mean like not cramped enough? :) Well i'm no Espi, as we've already established. Also i usually have autorun on, i had to turn it off to play B2B. Maybe that's because my maps are bigger, just to feel comfortable running around in them.
Anyways, they're really not that big i think, with the exception of one i didn't show.

Though I'm no mapper/modder, there are very few things when it comes to Doom that bother me.

I not picky about detail or lack thereof as long as the maps look "clean", ie. proper texture alignment, a natural flow of themes, little to no HOM effects. I can handle a few inconsistencies here and there when I'm playing Doom, but not at an extreme like wow.wad, The Sky May Be, or (most) anything found on DemonGate, D!Zone discs where it looks like shit was slapped on at random. The same goes for mods when we're talking weapons and monsters, ie. weapons that fit the setting, monsters that fit the setting. Mods like AEoD, for example, bother me. Throwing (almost) every monster and weapon into this giant mod bothers me. Maybe I'm anal and a stickler when it comes to sticking with the Doom theme (Hell, demons, etc.), but having monsters from Duke Nukem 3D, Redneck Rampage, PowerSlave, etc., where the foes are aliens, doesn't feel right to me. Same with the weapons. I don't want "magic" weapons mixed in with my more modern/futuristic weapons. Spell books, magic rods, etc. don't fit/mix with shotguns, pistols, rocket launchers, etc., in my opinion.

As far as gameplay goes, I have a bit of a masochist streak in me, so I like maps with a lot of monsters and general slaughter, like Deus Vult/II, AV, HR/II, MM/II, etc. I also like basic, vanilla-esque levels where the monster count is reasonable, like in Doom and Doom II. I also like mods/maps with puzzles and require some brain power here and there. Also, I tend to like maps/mods that have a "keep it simple, stupid" concept where gameplay is easy to learn, pick up and play, but there's still a challenge without making it cumbersome. Again, going back to AEoD as an example, having all of those weapons in there and trying to cycle through who knows how many to get the one I wanna use makes it frustrating and cumbersome. I don't need that many weapons. One for each number key ( 0 - 9 ) is fine with me and if someone just HAS to add more than that, let me drop something to replace a weapon for that number key ( drop a regular pistol for, say, a Desert Eagle for number key 1, for example ).

As far as joke wads or TC's go, I haven't played enough of those to really form a view/opinion yet. About the closest things I can use as examples for what I like in those kinds of wads are jokewads like Kaiser's Community Is Falling wads. In terms of TC's, Enjay's BPGA Missions, Justin Fischer's Aliens TC, Kaiser's Doom64 TC and Doom64 EX, and some others I can't for the life of me recall. I need to play more wads that I missed between September 2005 - December 2008. D:

I hope that what I said/mentioned makes sense. If not, or if said something that's contradictory, do let me know and I'll try to clarify.

Nice screenshots by the way, Antroid. (:

It's funny how everyone uses The Sky May Be as an exemplar, either for what they hate to see in a wad or for what they love. Personally, I think it's great.

Nems
I wholeheartedly agree with you about monsters and weapons. I even cringe at Heretic/Hexen textures in doom, but that may be a bit extreme. But i still think that Doomguy could've had one-two magic weapons found in hell or something. Not magic staffs or spellbooks, but some infernal artifacts. I think that would fit the game somewhat nicely.

About jokewads. Ok, i didn't really play jokewads ever, except for one russian wad and i think community is falling 3 which i found great for what it is. Also some wad where you have an ass as a weapon. So i can't think they get my attention.

However, in my wad, for some reason i wanted to fill it up to full 32 levels, even though i planned only 25. The remaining levels are somewhat jokewad-ish, like a simplistic mario level (as a mario fan i had to do it) with a mario weapon, an extremely lazy tribute to Zelda WW's final battle (of course you go against cyberdemon. Who else?), or a level where you have to fight all custom enemies i made for the wad, and the "Great Mighty Poo" music plays in the background, because originally that was also playing in a fight against crap. :D

I'm the exact opposite when it comes to realism. I like seeing levels that look like people, or demons could actually have once lived there, or used the space to do research (the latter being tech levels). My personal favorite types of levels are castle levels - ex - Espi's "the shrine" from Eternal Doom IV, Map 9 from Alien Vendetta and in the case of classic doom - E3M5

I can see the appeal of that, it's just that i feel that it doesn't belong in Doom. For me, at least. Well, sure, the bases and stuff are better when they aren't TOO abstract and nonsencial, but even stuff like tables/chairs really throws me off.

What a coincidence that this thread was bumped - here's another very long rant about doom custom levels in general which I saw on USENET the other day. Might be of interest...

Hm. He fails to recognize the difference between "monsters appearing from nowhere with no warning" and "monsters appearing from nowhere with a new form of warning that hasn't been overused for fifteen years." The monsters he mostly complains about in Deus Vult II don't actually pop out of nowhere - they pop out of bushes. Here's the trick: if you see bushes, stay on guard. I will agree that Deus Vult II's gameplay tends towards being brutal and exaggerated, but the massive, strange fights suit the massive, strange architecture well. I'm glad that someone tried designing a wad that way, even if it isn't always the most fun to play.

Sometimes I agree with his automap sentiment - that detail shouldn't be mapped so the map is as transparent as possible - but then I realize that the real problem is that I'm becoming too dependent on the map. When I play without a map, but instead keep mental track of the routes that need to be taken, the experience is usually more immersive and enjoyable. Some people will bitch about the gameplay in Earth because many of the caves aren't mapped, while that's one of the reasons that it appealed to me.

I think -fast and no-quicksaves are choices best left to the individual player who wants extra challenge. Ultra Violence really isn't the "hardcore" difficulty in most wads, anyway, and in the wads where it is, there are lower difficulty settings. There's no shame in using them.

I respect his opinions, but don't share them.

Creaphis said:
I think -fast and no-quicksaves are choices best left to the individual player who wants extra challenge. Ultra Violence really isn't the "hardcore" difficulty in most wads, anyway, and in the wads where it is, there are lower difficulty settings. There's no shame in using them.

This isn't something anyone can control, so it's a moot problem anyway. After all, speedrunners use UV, UV fast and nightmare, and not just UV. Basically all he's doing there is asking for levels that are easier on UV. He also wants "one time" playability, eliminating various devices that are useful once someone becomes familiar with a level (especially because when you're not, they are deadly).

I realize that the real problem is that I'm becoming too dependent on the map.

His best points are about the automap. I think the automap is a great asset of the game, and very useful. Of course, once you're familiar with a level it's less necessary, if at all. But disabling it in parts only makes the familiarization process more complicated. Personally, I find that annoying. It's as "fun" as those teleporter grids one needs to memorize. It's acceptable only with proper hints, such as the torches in Map30 of TNT.

The map is a valuable resource, and it would be good if map authors habitually gave it some special care - making detail lines "hidden," and making sure that all secret/trap doors are marked "secret," etc., to make the rest of the map as readable as possible and to avoid giving away hints that the player shouldn't have. But, I do still like it when something different is done with the map, like when slightly mazelike areas are left unmapped (ie. still simple enough to easily retain in the mind's visuospatial sketchpad), or when something completely original is attempted like in Grove, because that's different, and I always enjoy different. This is just me, of course, but it goes to show that defining the standard for maps is folly.

Edit: Maybe this post and the last one is really just a rant about Earth. Cyb criticized its gameplay in the 10 years feature, but I loved it, and I've been needing to vent some steam about that ever since.

Creaphis said:
and making sure that all secret/trap doors are marked "secret,"

Not always, sometimes that they are not marked is the hint that makes them findable. There checking the automap carries the reward of spotting the secret. But those secrets should be otherwise fully hidden, and possibly opened by other means than direct use.

and I always enjoy different.

That sounds like novelty worship. I think experimenting is good, but the results can certainly suck.

This is just me, of course, but it goes to show that defining the standard for maps is folly.

Somehow prohibiting innovation would be counterproductive, but pointing out what generally works isn't.

Maybe this post and the last one is really just a rant about Earth. Cyb criticized its gameplay in the 10 years feature, but I loved it, and I've been needing to vent some steam about that ever since.

Never liked it much, myself, it's mostly boring and ugly, but it did stand out conceptually in its attempt to follow a realistic perspective. What's with these posts that are veiled critiques* or praise of a certain WAD anyway? :p

* Since the guy's is mainly about gripes with DVII.

Man, I try to move to the middle, and you keep finding more to argue :P

myk said:

Not always, sometimes that they are not marked is the hint that makes them findable. There checking the automap carries the reward of spotting the secret. But those secrets should be otherwise fully hidden, and possibly opened by other means than direct use.

Hinting about a secret door with a differently-coloured line on the automap is a clever trick, but if the door is otherwise identical to the surrounding walls, the fact that the player is able to identify something special about that one spot really doesn't make sense. Games don't have to make sense, but this method of hiding a secret is inappropriate in any project that aims to make the player suspend his disbelief. Another problem with this trick is that it's very hard to give it an air of intentionality; if I find a secret door because its colour stuck out on the map, then I feel like I'm taking advantage of a mistake of the mapper. So yeah. It can work, but those lines that stick out on the automap usually shouldn't.

Never liked it much, myself, it's mostly boring and ugly, but it did stand out conceptually in its attempt to follow a realistic perspective. What's with these posts that are veiled critiques* or praise of a certain WAD anyway? :p

Perhaps all general statements are made with specific examples in mind. That's certainly the case for "I always enjoy different," "defining the standard for maps is folly," and for the first sentence in this paragraph.

Creaphis said:
Hinting about a secret door with a differently-coloured line on the automap is a clever trick, but if the door is otherwise identical to the surrounding walls, the fact that the player is able to identify something special about that one spot really doesn't make sense. Games don't have to make sense, but this method of hiding a secret is inappropriate in any project that aims to make the player suspend his disbelief.

It sure is better than encouraging Wolfenstein-styled wall humping ;)

I don't see why it's so "unbelievable" but I'd say that a designer should attempt to absorb a player through game mechanics, rather than suspend his critical faculties. It's not the player character that's identifying something, but the automap device. Whether it's detecting the secret in the same way as other doors from air currents, thin cracks or the wiring or whatever that operates the door is left to the imagination.

A tricky designer could also do this to a series of secrets that are opened remotely and then make one isolated secret similar but directly activated; the poor fool of a player might, out of habit, go search for the activator while all he had to do was knock on the line itself :p

Another problem with this trick is that it's very hard to give it an air of intentionality; if I find a secret door because its colour stuck out on the map, then I feel like I'm taking advantage of a mistake of the mapper. So yeah. It can work, but those lines that stick out on the automap usually shouldn't.

Hmm, while mistakes of this sort do occur, the mapper shouldn't use that device to give off a secret easily because some guy will think he's dumb and made a mistake?

Funny thing: I guess I've never really imagined an "automap device," but instead have simply thought of the automap as the summation of the Doomguy's conscious awareness of the environment. This is absurd in retrospect, considering that the data in computer map pickups would have to be downloaded to Doomguy's brain, or something. Isn't it interesting how ancient assumptions perpetuate?

myk said:

Hmm, while mistakes of this sort do occur, the mapper shouldn't use that device to give off a secret easily because some guy will think he's dumb and made a mistake?

If this mapper left the secret flag off in a consistent system, I'm sure the player could gain confidence in the mapper's intelligence. This precise usage and non-usage of the secret bit agrees with what I said in the first place: design the automap with care.

I am extremely anal about levels that I like. Generally speaking, I think the most common problem for Doom mappers is that the original Doom textures have been completely beaten into the dirt and a lot of people find them very boring. Including one, two or even a lot of new textures mixed with the original textures doesn't really do the trick either in most cases. Honestly, I think we are at the point now where the world just needs more good textures.

I hope people start releasing more wads with entirely new textures.

Funny, my opinion is a direct opposite :) I really like the original textures (of course if they are used in areas similiar to the original levels) and usually don't like any new textures i see, good or not. They just look out of place most of the time. Even if there are no original textures left around :D weird.

edit: also there was some map talk, and i remembered a certain map issue in my wad. Is it considered very bad to hide ALL the linedefs (leaving the map function only to show level stats), if the levels don't really require the map? They are not complicated, but the map really breaks some nice silent teleport tricks and some more stuff i include. Like in this one level there is an illusion that we've come to a previously visited place, just from an other side of a fence, but it's really just a recreation and is in a completely different corner of the map. But the whole map is planned to mess violently with people's heads, especially if they are good in 3d (or even 2d) orientation and keep track of which direction they've been going in.

Creaphis said:

Funny thing: I guess I've never really imagined an "automap device," but instead have simply thought of the automap as the summation of the Doomguy's conscious awareness of the environment. This is absurd in retrospect, considering that the data in computer map pickups would have to be downloaded to Doomguy's brain, or something.

I don't find your conceptualisation of the automap absurd, actually I think it's more elegant than the idea of an electronic device the Doomguy is carrying which automatically maps his environment (which is what I always thought). You can explain the pickup easily enough: Doomguy studies the map he found and commits it to memory.

I just read the other rant and wow, it could've been written by me.

Everything is fine, as long as it is used well. I have seen maps with only original textures that look extremely good and others that look like shit.

I have also seen maps with excellent use of custom textures and others that had no clue how to use them.

Antroid said:

Is it considered very bad to hide ALL the linedefs (leaving the map function only to show level stats), if the levels don't really require the map?

Well I must stress that it's your map, I am just one opinion, and you must do what you like, but this is a huge pet peeve for me. I habitually refer to the automap every few seconds and find levels that disable it extremely off-putting.

Well of course i do care for other opinions, i wouldn't ask otherwise. Why do you check your map so often? Would you do that in fairly linear levels which don't hide your main route from you at all and are easy to remember? Because as i said, while i'm not ready to remove the map that easily, i might have to for it to not break some of my tricks which i care about a lot more than the map :)