Deus Vult II Map29 - What's the point?

On Map29 in Deus Vult II, you can either exit to Map30 right away or go the opposite way and play a map identical to the first Deus Vult. However, whichever way you go, on Map30 (after you trigger the endgame), you are congratulated for beating the game and ending the invasion. This raises 3 questions:

1. If the map is there (Map29) yet you can easily just skip right by it, what's the point?

2. I've seen from multiple sources that Map29 of DVII is supposed to be a big surprise. But if you don't even have to play it and all it is is the original DV if you do play it, what's such a surprise here?

3. Why are you still congratulated for beating the game and stopping the invasion if you skip right by the map, and therefore don't beat the boss at the end of it? This makes no sense to me. It's like you can be rewarded for something you didn't even do.

If anyone knows what this whole idea of the map is all about, it would be appreciated if they could explain it to me here, as well as answer my questions. Thank you.

It's a Doom wad. You're playing it for fun. That's why.

Of course, that's common sense, but it still doesn't explain why multiple sources said it was a big surprise and gave no details about it when all it is is what I described above, nor does it explain why you are congratulated for beating the boss and stopping the invasion even if you skip right by the map. It's not that it's that big of a deal; it's simply that the idea of those two things is bothering me and I would like to have some explanations for them.

If I am not mistaken, most of the levels have quick exits. It's something Huy did just to make it possible to get through the levels easily if desired. Most agree that it's better to do it with more interesting tricks, like rocket jumps, the help of arch-viles, "glides" or whatever. He probably didn't want to bother spending too much time thinking on how to effect the short cuts.

As for the story making no sense when using the shortcuts, as they say, "gameplay over plot" :p

Really though, it's just a carnage WAD; the story was tacked in for completion. Huy isn't too serious a guy, anyway, as evidenced by the way he made his exit from the site.

Your post mostly makes sense and explains things, but I don't remember DVII maps to have "quick exits". Can you please explain how these "quick exits" are reached on some of the other maps (Map01-03, 12-13, 19-23)? That would be appreciated.

Every single map has a 'quick' or rather, 'suicide' exit. Usually areas you must use a rocket launcher to kill yourself (thus reducing your height to 0) so you can slide under a wall into an exit sector. They're usually pretty well hidden, but if you keep a lookout you can find them.

As for Map29 containing DV1's Map05, it was just for the hell of it. It was a joke on Belial, that's all.

At least I convinced him to make that map on map29, rather than 30 (to avoid having the monsters telefrag each other..)

Brandon D. Lade said:

Your post mostly makes sense and explains things, but I don't remember DVII maps to have "quick exits". Can you please explain how these "quick exits" are reached on some of the other maps (Map01-03, 12-13, 19-23)? That would be appreciated.

Look this thread.

I have to admit, suicide exits make for a very uninteresting tas run.

As a map-maker, I'd like to know why standard tricks ( AV jumps, glides... ) are more "interesting" than death exits.
After all, they allow speedrunners to finish the level quickly in a similar fashion, right ? :o
Isn't speed what matters in that case ?

Or are those standard tricks more interesting simply because they weren't ALL planified by the map author ?

Another question : if those death exits were placed further in the levels, would you guys find them more "interesting" ?

A rocket launcher death exit isn't necessarily bad, although those damaging floor exits are pretty boring. The interesting ones (be they intentional or accidental) are the ones that either aren't too evident or at least demand more skill. Also, if most are more or less the same, runners get bored of doing the same predictable things in most of the maps.

[WH]-Wilou84 said:

As a map-maker, I'd like to know why standard tricks ( AV jumps, glides... ) are more "interesting" than death exits.
After all, they allow speedrunners to finish the level quickly in a similar fashion, right ? :o
Isn't speed what matters in that case ?

Or are those standard tricks more interesting simply because they weren't ALL planified by the map author ?

Another question : if those death exits were placed further in the levels, would you guys find them more "interesting" ?

To me, what makes tas runs interesting, is how you run past hordes of enemies in ways that a normal player would consider absolute suicide. In the unholy cathedral level, all it takes is pressing a few switches, grabbing a rocket launcher, running into the library section, and killing yourself. A tas run involving getting 2 of the 3 keys necessary would be way more fun to watch.

Ok I see, thanks for your replies. :)

Huy isn't too serious a guy, anyway, as evidenced by the way he made his exit from the site.

Why ?...

Will he ever complete DVII ?

I think DV II was completed. Unfortunately, Huy posted an illegal link and got banned from DW.

On purpose or accident?

I don't think someone who made two Cacoward worthy wads, and a Mordeth winning map would intentionally break rules. But then again, I could be wrong.

Clearly you have no idea why he was banned. He was trolling the forums and pissing off the moderators.

On the subject of what makes a speedrun (including a TAS speedrun) interesting, it should need to involve some creativity. An exit switch that can be pressed from the player start position clearly doesn't qualify from that viewpoint. A route that, e.g., features a keygrab that enables a player to reach a point where a cyberdemon will open a door for him (from the 'wrong' side), so that he can then reach a position where an archie blast together with a rocket boost will enable the player to make a death slide along a raised linedef under a locked door to reach the exit line, will be somewhat more interesting.

By deliberately leaving rather simple methods to exit the maps (and please note, mostly not 'suicide exits', since the player doesn't die in "exit if <10% health" sectors), I feel Huy showed bad judgement. It basically killed the Speed category in these maps, since it leaves them as very uninteresting routes. It's just a case of looking for a relevant sector in an editor, and then finding how to reach it most quickly. It's hardly even worth spending time trying to optimize the running, since the resulting demo won't be good to watch in any case. I recorded a few essentially as bug demos, and expected that they would be treated as such.

This error was probably a result of Huy wanting to make the maps Speed-friendly, but not being a speedrunner himself. An excellent example of a Speed-friendly megawad is Kama Sutra, which was created by two highly experienced Compet-n players. They left all sorts of shortcut possibilities (mostly intentional, some perhaps not), and left it to the players to work out which were useful, and how they should be used together for best effect. Some were just a bit too simple though, and the best maps in this respect were the ones where there was some monster resistance to overcome, thus complicating the task of assessing the best route. Leeds Castle was a nice map in that respect, for instance.

Another very Speed-friendly megawad is Icarus, where the shortcut themes were mostly unintended. In a few cases the suicide exit possibilities do render the route trivial, but in many they open up some extremely interesting route ideas. See maps 19, 22 and 28, for instance (or just watch the ic30 TAS run). TVR! also falls into a similar category.

As for Huy's banning, his repeatedly absurd behaviour pretty much insisted on it. He was given a lot of leeway but eventually just went berserk. What can you do when someone keeps taking an extended dump on the forums?

Grazza said:

As for Huy's banning, his repeatedly absurd behaviour pretty much insisted on it. He was given a lot of leeway but eventually just went berserk. What can you do when someone keeps taking an extended dump on the forums?

I understand. Still, I think it's very unusual (and saddening) that someone who puts in a lot of effort to make exceptional maps would intentionally troll the forums to get himself banned.

I should also mention that Deus Vult II technically isn't complete. He's decided that until Doom Builder 2 comes out he isn't going to be mapping anymore.. so it could be some time.

Bans could be temporary, like 3 weeks or something. Youtube and ebay ban people permanently too as far as I know, which just sucks because these corporations have become part of the environment with a sort of monopoly hold. Hopefully no company will start controlling/selling oxygen in the future and ban people from breathing it.

gggmork said:

Bans could be temporary

Sure, they can be temporary, but in Huy's case he got loser'd (which is a lenient ban, to say the least) and then managed to get himself completely banned even in that state.

From reading his writings in the DV2 text file, he doesn't seem like the kind of person to fall to that behavior arbitrarily. But I can't really judge that.

I suspect it's more of a personal matter that he managed to get himself into with the staff. Anyone who could put that much effort into map making surely has the level of passion to do something like that. :P

TheeXile said:

From reading his writings in the DV2 text file, he doesn't seem like the kind of person to fall to that behavior arbitrarily. But I can't really judge that.

I suspect it's more of a personal matter that he managed to get himself into with the staff. Anyone who could put that much effort into map making surely has the level of passion to do something like that. :P

Eh, he acted like that on IRC a lot, too. He made it pretty clear that he just felt like screwing around.

TheeXile said:

From reading his writings in the DV2 text file, he doesn't seem like the kind of person to fall to that behavior arbitrarily. But I can't really judge that.

Actually it's a clever move, as expected from a former chess player : by getting banned on purpose, Huy gave himself more time for Doom mapping instead of spending too much time trolling here. :>

@ Grazza : Well yeah I've watched plenty of demos of Kama Sutra and actually I didn't see the difference ( from a demo-viewer's point of view ) between those "near-death" exits in DVII and tricks like, say, the start-on-exit in KS 25, the jump-from-pillar in KS 28, the death glide close to the beginning in KS 32 or the Cyberdemon opening the door in KS 23, for example.
Indeed, demos are much better to watch when the gameplay involves monster resistance and a bit of progress through the hordes, as you guys mention.

[WH]-Wilou84 said:

Actually it's a clever move, as expected from a former chess player : by getting banned on purpose, Huy gave himself more time for Doom mapping instead of spending too much time trolling here. :>

Asking might have been more efficient. :/

He also manged to get banned by a former chess player. Check mate!

[WH]-Wilou84 said:
Well yeah I've watched plenty of demos of Kama Sutra and actually I didn't see the difference ( from a demo-viewer's point of view ) between those "near-death" exits in DVII and tricks like, say, the start-on-exit in KS 25, the jump-from-pillar in KS 28, the death glide close to the beginning in KS 32 or the Cyberdemon opening the door in KS 23, for example.

Even by what you mention, there is a considerable amount of variety in the KS tricks you chose. At least more than mostly just hopping onto a damaging puddle.

Lately I've often been playing or replaying levels before watching demos on them (unless already very familiar with the levels). Otherwise, one gets rather passive and insensitive in regard to the recordings.

TheeXile said:

Asking might have been more efficient. :/

Asking to be banned? Does that ever work? I think it's better he leave with more of a bang anyway. It would probably feel more like a victory to him than just asking..

JohnnyRancid said:

Asking to be banned? Does that ever work? I think it's better he leave with more of a bang anyway. It would probably feel more like a victory to him than just asking..

Burning bridges is never a victory. He would just be setting himself up to be made a fool of by staff with a possible vendetta against him if or when he returns. Doesn't matter how good your map is if the person with the delete button doesn't like you.


But again, I won't pretend to know anything on the real matter. Just doesn't seem logical to me, is all.

Well, I just hope the full version of Deus Vult 2 won't be another NeoDoom, ZPack or UTnT, ie a pretty good wad but watered down on purpose because of the author's behaviour...