SpareRib 2 version 3 (UPDATED: with fewer switches!)

Update: Version 3 is here. Download link at the bottom of this post.

My first complete map from scratch is almost ready for release. This wad is designed for and tested on Doom 2, so it should work with all ports.

Features:







Most importantly, I really hope to get help from playtesters and experienced authors. With some constructive feeback, maybe I can make this map worthy of idgames. If you try this map, please do comment in this thread or by private message, and consider recording a demo of your play.

Edit: This map has not yet been uploaded to the archives because I don't consider it 100% complete. Thanks for the opportunity to clarify, Mr. Chris.

Downloads:

SR_0103.zip (74.89 KB) - v3, latest!

SR2_0102.zip (76.1 KB) - v2

SR2_0101.zip (62.19 KB) - v1, old, available on MegaUpload

Screenshots

spoilers.zip (102.14 KB) - Demo of v2 with 100% items / secrets / kills

Is it uploaded to the archives? If not, maybe you should get some feedback here first in case there are any notible glitches or errors.

Hey sparerib. Glad to see you finally did your own map. And I'm impressed. Though it's not perfect, it definitely doesn't look like your first map from scratch. I can tell you spent a lot of time on this.

I'm not an experienced author, but I'll give my feedback anyway. Your detail and design are better than that of most new mappers I've seen. My favorite part about your level, though, is the way the player encounters monsters, especially in the imp elevators, the slime room, and the last room.

I have a few suggestions. I wouldn't put so many switches in there. I still don't know what some of them did, mainly the ones that were side by side that didn't open a door/light up a room. Also, putting a bunch of the same weapon in a room (the ssg part) usually isn't a good idea. I'd say either replace them with shell boxes, or make sort of a "gun rack" so the guns won't look so out of place.

From playing this, you seem to be pretty clever. Keep this as you get more experienced. I'm excited to see what you put out in the future.

Hi DuckReconMajor,

Thank you very much for your kind words. I'm very gratified to know you played and enjoyed my map. It really has been quite a lot of work, but only because I still have lots to learn about mapping. The next one should come a bit easier thanks to lessons and techniques learned with this one.

DuckReconMajor said:

I wouldn't put so many switches in there. I still don't know what some of them did, mainly the ones that were side by side that didn't open a door/light up a room.

My concept of elevators (aka lifts) is that they have switches on each floor to move them up or down. I could eliminate some switches by allowing the player to activate (press) the lift itself from the bottom of the shaft. In real life however, you don't jump down an elevator shaft, you push a button.

There are two lifts which I conceived of as freight elevators, which should be operated remotely by a human using a control panel with one up button and one down button. One remote control panel is within easy view of the freight elevator. The second remote control panel has video displays to monitor the freight elevator, although in DOOM they can't display anything. (I've seen remote cameras working in some ZDoom levels though.) If the operation of the two freight elevators seems too confusing, I could separate them a bit from other elements to make them more obvious.

DuckReconMajor said:

Also, putting a bunch of the same weapon in a room (the ssg part) usually isn't a good idea. I'd say either replace them with shell boxes, or make sort of a "gun rack" so the guns won't look so out of place.

The blue key room is conceived as a security center, where guards can monitor all parts of the complex on the video display panels. They need weapons to respond to emergencies. In terms of actual gameplay, you'll need the ammo if you really want to try killing all the monsters in the slime pit. (It is possible to earn 100% plus kills with the ammo provided.) It might make sense to assume that an emergency has occurred (ahem, demon attack!) and therefore all guards have been deployed with weapons in hand, leaving only a few boxes of ammo in reserve.

In the garden, you'll find corpses of killed guards. They have dropped their weapons and armor as they died. If you look at the map in Doom Builder, or play with the -nomonsters cheat, you can see that the number of SSGs equals the number of corpses on one side, and the number of helmets equals the number of corpses on the other. The poor fellow on the pike died before he could use his invulnerability, dropping his SSG and two boxes of ammo.

Expect changes to address some of your concerns in version 2.

DuckReconMajor said:

I'm excited to see what you put out in the future.

Again, thanks for your praise. I'm toying with some new ideas for SR3 right now. If I can learn how to make outdoor areas properly, it will be a gargantuan map compared to SR1 and SR2, probably requiring months to complete.

Heya sparerib. Just had a quick play through your level, and i gotta say, it was pretty fun actually.

Probably my favorite part was where you step into a room, and sudddenly there are all these Barons behind you. You are forced to run down this long walkway, and either side of you, Barons are raising up out of the green sludge, one after the other as you run down the walkway. That was a very cool idea.

I would agree with DRM in saying that generally you don't want to put lots of the same kind of weapon together too often, though on this level, it seemed to almost work ok.

Also, I wasn't clear either on what some of the switches did, but it didn't really affect my journey through the level. I just hit every switch i came across regardless of what it did, and then continued on my merry way.

The last fight came as a rather brutal surprise, I died a few times there.

It's really odd. This level looks as if it should be really confusing, but when you play it, it really isn't confusing at all. I'm not sure how you managed that trick, but neat work all the same...

Overall a good starting level. Lots of interesting things going on and some nice fights. Keep up the good work. :)

Greetings Kyka,

At this point I'm truly overjoyed to know my work has reached a few of you. Yeah, I was a bit worried that maybe no one would understand the kind of experience I was trying to create. It looks like at least some can understand and appreciate my idea of a fun Doom experience.

Kyka said:

Probably my favorite part was where you step into a room, and sudddenly there are all these Barons behind you. You are forced to run down this long walkway . . .

I like the idea of players being forced to flee blindly through a dark, poisoned sector. Some of the better wads I've played scared me silly with traps like this. As an aside, during play testing I kept getting stuck on the broken lift at the end of the walkway. It took some work to get the thing to look right without being unescapable.

Kyka said:

I would agree with DRM in saying that generally you don't want to put lots of the same kind of weapon together too often . . .

Do you mean to say that it is too much ammo? Or do you mean that there are too many weapons? Or is it that there isn't enough variety of ammo or weapons?

Kyka said:

Also, I wasn't clear either on what some of the switches did, but it didn't really affect my journey through the level.

I'm trying to do something to help this in version 2.

Kyka said:

The last fight came as a rather brutal surprise, I died a few times there.

I died there a lot in play testing, but that should only happen if your goal is to kill the monsters. You are welcome to exit early if you just want to survive the level.

Thank you very much for playing my map. After I get a little more feedback, I'll release version 2 with the issues mentioned in this thread addressed. I do hope you'll be around to try it when it's done.

sparerib1968 said:

Do you mean to say that it is too much ammo? Or do you mean that there are too many weapons? Or is it that there isn't enough variety of ammo or weapons?

None of the above. I (And i think DRM also, tho I can't say for certain that he meant the same thing, but i think he does,) is it is a purely an aesthetic thing. It's not a case of having more or less ammo or even having different weapons. It is purely saying that lots of the same weapon looks (usually anyway) just somehow not right, untidy.

Though as I said, it actually doesn't look too bad on this level, whereas usually it doesn't look so good.

sparerib1968 said:
Yeah, I was a bit worried that maybe no one would understand the kind of experience I was trying to create.

Well, like I said earlier, the stuff you did in here is pretty clever. The only thing is, though, that it will get passed over by many playing though you wad. I think more people would realize what you were trying to do if your wads had a story with them. For example, now that I notice it, I like what you did with the bodies in the last room. I didn't notice it, though, since in its current state they look like random decorations. If it had just a short story with it, the player would see it and think, "Hey, those must have been those marines who went outside to see what was going on. Poor men. Oh wow those armor bonuses must have been their helmets. Nice touch." Well, maybe not that much, but you get the point.

Do you mean to say that it is too much ammo? Or do you mean that there are too many weapons? Or is it that there isn't enough variety of ammo or weapons?

I meant exactly what Kyka said. It's hard to put your finger on it, but something about seeing that just screams "new mapper". I understand what you did and why you did it, but to those who don't catch these things, it just looks like you don't know what you're doing. Again, I think a story would help with that, or maybe make it look a bit more like you said, that the guards were deployed and that was where they kept the guns.

I understand that you want to get your mapping skills down before you start anything major, but I still see you making some pretty cool story based wads. Keep up the good work.

After months, version 2 is finally ready.

Sorry for the delay. My notebook died, and after getting a spare desktop I have switched to Kubuntu as my primary full time operating system. Yeah, it took me some time to get situated.

For version 2 I have addressed all the concerns mentioned above, hopefully to the satisfaction playtesters. There is now a new area to explore, and I've tried to make things work more sensibly. The map should now present a much harder challenge to those who go for 100% kills but it is still beatable.

I very much appreciate everyone who playtests my map. Your feedback has been invaluable so far. Please do try the new map, and help me make it better. It would be great to see some demos of your play.

http://sharebee.com/69376fc4 (version 02, latest!)

I think its pretty fun. I did a casual not too fast max kills demo but missed some secrets. I like the puzzly parts (rocket launcher one kinda has exploit where you can hang off half way so the lift doesn't go all the way up. Maybe the switch that opens the door to the double barrel could be more visible, and maybe the beginning door area's couple of paper thin texture walls could be real walls instead (with dimension). One time when a lost soul came down a lowering platform, it seemed like it would be a lift that went back up or something. Those shell boxes near the (blue?) key in dark spaces are kinda easy to miss, which is fine if that's intentional.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/cuonsq

Good to see you back, sparerib.

Here's my UV demo. Recorded in vanilla (make sure you complevel 2 it if you PrBoom, had some run-in with infinitely tall Barons). I really liked the new area (though I wussed out on it in the demo :P). One thing I'd suggest is

I also liked how you rearranged things to make it clearer as to what switches do what (though I'm not sure why I have to press the switch for the platform in the first room so many times).

I liked the story you put with it, though I'm not sure why you took out the bit with the shotgun rack and the arrangements of helmets, shotguns, etc. outside, though, now that you have a story (I kinda feel bad for saying you should take them out :P).

gggmork, your level of play is incredible. It looks like you are a mouse user, right? I am just in awe because in all the hundreds of play tests I could never achieve such efficiency and ammo conservation. Just know that there are a few monsters remaining to kill if you want to go after all the secrets.

The switch that opens the door to the double barrel is brightly lit. Do you have any ideas for how I can make it more obvious? As a beginning mapper I really want to learn how to make my maps fun.

Which "paper thin" textures bothered you?

The lift in the red key room is broken. That is why you have to both press the switch and hit the lift to make it come down. It never goes back up (although it used to go up in an older version of the wad I scrapped that idea.)

As to the shell boxes in the blue key room, all I can say is that players who want more ammo will have to investigate their surroundings carefully. (As explained in story.txt, parts of the complex are experiencing power failure due to the demonic invasion.) Though you completed the map, you did not even need the hidden ammo cache (which would have been revealed had you gotten all the secrets.)

Thank you very much for playing my map, and making a fine demo. If you have other suggestions or criticisms please do share them. I will take all these into account for version 3, which seems very likely because my map is not as challenging as I had hoped for highly skilled players.

Duck, you push the left switch to make the freight elevator go up, and the right switch to make it go down. I do not know how to make it more obvious unless I eliminate the down switch, since you never need to make it go down.

Please do not feel bad about the gun racks and helmets. I learned something from you and Kyka which I will take with me for all the maps I develop in the future. It simply had not occured to me that players would find it asthetically displeasing until you guys mentioned it. Thinking about some of the worse wads I have played (1337.wad comes to mind) I guess I can see why.

Thank you very much for your demo. It is very instructional to see how players react to my designs.

Everyone, I will probably start work on version 3 tomorrow, so please do add your comments.

I had a play. It admittedly looks like a beginner map, but you have a good grasp of concepts like theming rooms consistently, using different rooms throughout your maps to make areas look unique, using different height areas to both separate areas and direct player flow, as well as stuff like lifts, stairs, impassible midtextures and recessing switches into walls so they look better than just a plain switch texture.

That being said, there are too many switches. If you want to make switches for lifts that's fine, for doors gets a bit repetitive, but there are so many switches which do something unseen and no hint as to where so you have to start hunting or just hope you unknowningly come across the result. I think alot of people would get bored with that kind of gameplay.

Don't restrict yourself to switched lifts just because it's realistic. Doom is about action and fast-pace at the expense of realism, that's what the IWAD levels (especially Episode 1) are all about. If a map would flow better by having a lift come down automatically when the player steps on it or even before they step on it, then do that instead.

I agree with mork that the paper-thin walls in one of the early rooms look silly (the grey room with the vent secret), there seems alot of setups which are just infighting for the sake of watching monsters kill other monsters, and two Cyberdemons is a bit of a 1994-style overkill.

And lastly, I got stuck and had to quit. I ran past all those Barons and Sergeants, got the SSG, went back up to the blue door but all the barons had gathered beneath that ledge. I couldn't find a way out behind me, and things have an infinite height (at least in Doom2.exe) so I was trapped.

I don't want to make it sound all bad, you obviously have a good fundamental grasp of the mapping format, realise things which make a map enjoyable to a participant, and you use both small cramped and large expansive areas which is quite inventive for a new mapper. These are just the things I noticed wrong. Keep at it! :)

Your intuitive mapping skills and ability to accept constructive criticism have lead to the creation of a very entertaining map.

I haven't finished it yet, died and got discouraged

I agree with duckrecon, one of the greatest aspects of this map are the monster encounters.
I'll try to beat it later, gotta get some sleep. Thank you for the entertainment!

Super Jamie said:

And lastly, I got stuck and had to quit. I ran past all those Barons and Sergeants, got the SSG, went back up to the blue door but all the barons had gathered beneath that ledge. I couldn't find a way out behind me, and things have an infinite height (at least in Doom2.exe) so I was trapped.

I found luring the Barons away from the ledge to be fun.

Maybe just because the switch is so deep in the wall it kinda looks like a window/hole/decoration as you pass it. I guess if switches were like 4 pixels deep instead of 16 or whatever it is, it'd be more visible (or maybe not even have switches for doors, but its your map/decision).
I just meant the thin walls where 3x former humans come out of stalls sort of (doesn't really 'bother' me but you can view the wall perpendicularly and it has no dimension/disappears). Most speedrunners use mouse but I use keyboard + 180degreeFlipKey.

Version 3 progress report follows. I am addressing everyone's complaints as best I can.

gggmork said:rocket launcher one kinda has exploit where you can hang off half way so the lift doesn't go all the way up.

No plans to change it unless someone can suggest something. This kind of exploit exists all over the IWADs too.

gggmork said:Maybe the switch that opens the door to the double barrel could be more visible

Fixed by removing the switch and making it a touch door.

gggmork said:maybe the beginning door area's couple of paper thin texture walls could be real walls instead (with dimension)

Done. I was just experimenting with two dimensional lines to see how they could be used. Some other mappers make neat decorations with them, but no one seems to like what I did :(

gggmork said:One time when a lost soul came down a lowering platform, it seemed like it would be a lift that went back up or something.

No plans to change it. The lift works exactly as I intended, according to the story.

gggmork said:Those shell boxes near the (blue?) key in dark spaces are kinda easy to miss, which is fine if that's intentional.

No plans to change it. Players who want more ammo should explore their surroundings. I am evil like that.

DuckReconMajor said:

Spoiler

I'd put the radiation suits somewhere where they're more likely to be found after the player has grabbed the yellow key.

Done, although I do not understand your reasoning. It seems much harder now to me, perhaps because I play it differently.

DuckReconMajor said:I'm not sure why I have to press the switch for the platform in the first room so many times

Fixed. There is now only one button, and you can only activate it one time.

DuckReconMajor said:I'm not sure why you took out the bit with the shotgun rack and the arrangements of helmets, shotguns, etc. outside

No plans to change it. Those items were not necessary to complete the mission. As has been pointed out already in this thread, story must always take a back seat to the action in Doom.

Super Jamie said:there are too many switches.

Fixed. I removed as many unnecessary switches as I could think of.

Super Jamie said:If a map would flow better by having a lift come down automatically when the player steps on it or even before they step on it, then do that instead.

No plans to change it. Some players dislike lifts operated by walkovers, and I do not see how this map would be improved by changing the lifts to walkovers.

Super Jamie said:I agree with mork that the paper-thin walls in one of the early rooms look silly

Fixed. Sorry for being silly.

Super Jamie said:there seems alot of setups which are just infighting for the sake of watching monsters kill other monsters, and two Cyberdemons is a bit of a 1994-style overkill

No plans to change it. It fits the story, and the map would be thrown completely out of balance by removing the cybers. I wanted spider masterminds there but my slime pit is not big enough for them to maneuver around the barons.

Super Jamie said:And lastly, I got stuck and had to quit. I ran past all those Barons and Sergeants, got the SSG, went back up to the blue door but all the barons had gathered beneath that ledge. I couldn't find a way out behind me, and things have an infinite height (at least in Doom2.exe) so I was trapped.

No plans to change it. You gave up too easily. Watch gggmork's demo to see how you could have escaped. I will definitely remember this for future maps though.

gggmork said:Most speedrunners use mouse but I use keyboard + 180degreeFlipKey

Ah, yes I can see that now. I only use that in certain situations, but you seem to have incorporated it into your movements very effectively.

Thanks again for playing the map. Please do return for more when version 3 is ready :)

sparerib1968 said:

Done, although I do not understand your reasoning. It seems much harder now to me, perhaps because I play it differently.

The first one is fine. I forgot about the slime you're walking in afterwards. However,

That's cool, just giving you some feedback and suggestions :) I guessed there was probably a way out of the baron thing, I just got impatient :P

I'd like to commend you for taking so much constructive feedback positively. From what I've seen, you have a natural talent for good layouts and variety of theme. Of course nobody gets it perfect first time, but you're doing well and with an attitude like this, you'll be a pleasure to playtest for and will likely improve very fast.

Looking forward to your next version and future maps!

DuckReconMajor said:

The first one is fine. I forgot about the slime you're walking in afterwards. However,

Spoiler

I think the secret one in the SSG room could be moved. You need a radiation suit to make it all the way through the yellow key door secret. It's perfectly okay if you want the player to just suck it up and start over, though.

Duck, can you please explain this in more detail by private message? Sorry, but I do not know what exactly you mean. Maybe some pictures would help.

You're right. I'm terribly sorry. I could've sworn I picked up a rad suit and a light amp, but I guess it was just the amp visor.

spoilers.zip (102.14 KB) - Two different demos showing 100% items / secrets / kills in version 2. Now anyone with patience to sit through just over twenty minutes of me sucking at Doom can learn all the secrets of SpareRib 2 version 2.

If you don't want the spoilers, then please don't watch. Otherwise, enjoy!

Version 3 is here. There have been fewer changes for this version, but most of them directly address the problems encountered by playtesters so far.

As a treat for playtesters, I have included a new area, which I think you will want to visit. I consider it somewhat experimental, and quite challenging. I very much anticipate your feedback on what I have done here.

Please try this new version and let me know whether or not it looks good enough for a final release. I am especially interested to know what you all think of the difficulty in this version. The demos from version 2 were very helpful, so please consider recording a demo of your journey through version 3.

As alway, thank you very much for all your encouragement, and for testing my map.

I tried a few times, but I keep dying, even on ITYTD. At least for me, this version is really hard.

From what I've seen though, I think this is getting pretty good. I do like the cutdown on switches. I also do like the extra monsters you put in, even if I couldn't beat them. One things I can suggest is maybe a little more floor height variation. Also, I'd suggest maybe replacing the non-working switch in the pit with a computer panel, so people aren't annoyed when they mash it and waste bullets on it and still wonder if it's a glitch. I also think you should set difficulties on things. If I was a bit better the difficulty would be good for me. And this difficulty will be just right for some. However, setting different skills on things will help balance difficulty for a much wider base.

Haven't played your map in a while so I did a 'hey I remember tha- oh wait it's different now' run. Unfortunately I kind of blanked on the last bit, forgot you could just invuln out of there. http://www.filedropper.com/absr2v3

Other than the bathroom and related secret, I don't remember needing the yellow key in that run so I'm not sure what point there is to having it there. By extension the secret with the rad suit and related stuff by the elevator is kind of meh too.

I didn't bother checking but if as drm says there are no difficulty levels it's not a good thing, not everyone speedruns doom :P Getting a feel for how the difficulty settings should be is also important to mapping.

Anyway other than some meh gameplay in the beginning (pistol v former humans isn't fun ;) it was decent in gameplay.

ArmouredBlood, your filedropper link goes nowhere for me. I'd really love to see your demo, so please consider uploading it to somewhere else. I like Sharebee because it gives people a choice of 5 different hosts to download from.
*fixed

Ugh. Looks like version 4 is in the works. Just when I thought it was safe to get started on SR3 ... :(

You guys seem to be saying it is too hard. I think so too, since I can't even beat the thing. I am more than willing to rearrange monsters and ammunition to even out the challenge, but I need to know where it goes wrong for you.

I do not intend to add difficulty settings to this map. My target audience is moderate to highly skilled players. If I succeed, then anyone who can get through the first three episodes of Doom on HMP (I can) should be able to achieve 100% on this map in about 10 plays or less.

One things I can suggest is maybe a little more floor height variation.

Will do.

Also, I'd suggest maybe replacing the non-working switch in the pit with a computer panel

Will do. It seems like the things I think are clever end up being most annoying to other players. (Note to self: stop that!)

The point of the yellow key is that it opens doors which lead to secret areas and weapon/ammo dumps. Anyone who wants to kill all the monsters will likely need all weapons and ammo provided.

ArmouredBlood said:

Other than the bathroom and related secret

What bathroom? There are no bathtubs, showers, or toilets on this map, so I have no idea what you mean.

I am really sorry about the meh parts. This map is becoming kind of blah to work on. I really hope the next version can be my final release. I need a little more help here to fix the problems first, so please do lay all your criticizms and suggestions on me.

I finished version 3. The start up to the blue key door was quite easy. The amount of infighting distracts the cybers and I love the idea of having to run across the pits into the arms of two Revenants just to survive.

The radiation room at the start isn't immediately obvious and it's way too easy to die in there. Punishing a player for merely exploring with little hope of escape isn't really fun, especially when you put rockets and much-needed shells down there.

The blue key room was kinda annoying without prior knowledge, it's so dark you can't see anything! I ended up forgetting the imps and just grabbing shotgun ammo and leaving.

I started to run out of ammo after this, around the red key, again in the room with all the boxes, and I was totally out after the Plasma gun and had to punch all the Imps around the Blue Armor, which was kinda boring.

I again ran out in the last passages before the end room, having to punch the last two Revenants. Luckily I was using ZDoom so I just crouchjumped in and picked up the next chainguns. The end room was kinda ridiculous. What's the fun in grabbing an invuln sphere, hitting two switches and running past a shitstorm of monsters (if their hitboxes don't by chance block you) to an exit? There's nowhere near enough ammo in the rest of the map to finish this room alone, never mind with the Arch Vile running around resurrecting everyone.

Other bits I didn't like were the three chaingunners in your face after the crate room, any health you've been conserving through skill up to that point is instantly gone. And the lift to get out of the Imps area needs its trigger moved, it took me about 10 goes to straferun that, there are so many angles to get caught up on.

Also Pain Elementals are pretty much everyone's least favorite monster. In a level where ammo is already intentionally tight, the last thing you'd want is people wasting it on Lost Souls.

There were also a few areas where medkits were in the way of somewhere I needed to go, but was often on ~99% health, so had to waste the pickup. Forcing people to get health is usually not a good idea, especially in a harder map where a player may want to save it for later when they really need it.


I know this sounds all negative and I'm sorry. I do like the overall layout, there is good theme variation (though the walls are a bit bland), there is good re-use of areas and some of the situations are really fun like the Revenant run mentioned above, the Hell Knights guarding the Plasma gun teleporting in, and the Cacos at the start are a surprise if you don't know they're there. But the lack of ammo did make it a bit too painful to play, the end was pointless, and there's no way anyone could get 100% kills on this without spending hours leading monsters around to cause infighting.

I understand you're trying to appeal to skilled players, but that also requires at least a partially skilled mapper. My suggestion is to learn to crawl before you can walk. I'm no Doom Builder genius myself, but after a few tweaks and versions I do find it easier to start a new layout rather than get frustrated trying to tweak an already flawed idea.

You obviously have talent, your detailing needs a little work but you do come up with some really fun and memorable encounters. Don't worry, nobody gets it right first time out :)

sparerib1968 said:

Ugh. Looks like version 4 is in the works. Just when I thought it was safe to get started on SR3 ... :(

I think you should take a break from SR2 and work on SR3. I can tell you're getting tired of working on it, and I think it would be good for you to start fresh, keeping a lot of what Super Jamie said in mind.

Of course, you can definitely come back to SR2 later. I just think trudging along with a map you're tired of working on is going to drive you insane/make you quit Doom mapping. I wouldn't want that.

sparerib1968 said:

Will do. It seems like the things I think are clever end up being most annoying to other players. (Note to self: stop that!)

No no no, don't stop being clever. Just make your clever bits more obvious as clever bits, and not a supposedly broken feature.

Super Jamie said:

I again ran out in the last passages before the end room, having to punch the last two Revenants. Luckily I was using ZDoom so I just crouchjumped in and picked up the next chainguns. The end room was kinda ridiculous. What's the fun in grabbing an invuln sphere, hitting two switches and running past a shitstorm of monsters (if their hitboxes don't by chance block you) to an exit? There's nowhere near enough ammo in the rest of the map to finish this room alone, never mind with the Arch Vile running around resurrecting everyone.

It was possible in the last version, I dunno if it's changed in version 3, but I like that part.

Super Jamie, it's too bad you had to cheat to survive. As explained in the text file, the map is not intended for jumping, much less crouch jumping. I would love to have seen your demo though, because it must have looked very funny.

Super Jamie said:

The radiation room at the start isn't immediately obvious and it's way too easy to die in there. Punishing a player for merely exploring with little hope of escape isn't really fun, especially when you put rockets and much-needed shells down there.

Did you miss the two radiation signs and the blinking lights? How did you intend to use the rockets without a launcher? I really wish I knew what happened that made it seem so harsh, especially since gggmork already demonstrated an exploit to get through it without a radiation suit.

Super Jamie said:

The blue key room was kinda annoying without prior knowledge, it's so dark you can't see anything!

I know this kind of trick only works on the first play.

Super Jamie said:

There's nowhere near enough ammo in the rest of the map to finish this room alone, never mind with the Arch Vile running around resurrecting everyone.

Players are welcome to escape with their lives. I want even less skilled players to have a fair chance to get out. Your remarks on health, ammo, and monster placement are greatly appreciated. I will be making changes to better accommodate your needs.

Super Jamie said:

And the lift to get out of the Imps area needs its trigger moved, it took me about 10 goes to straferun that, there are so many angles to get caught up on.

I intended that to be a bit tricky, but is it just too annoying?

Super Jamie said:

But the lack of ammo did make it a bit too painful to play, the end was pointless, and there's no way anyone could get 100% kills on this without spending hours leading monsters around to cause infighting.

gggmork and I both submitted demos showing 100% or more kills on version 2, and he didn't even find the plasma rifle. Sorry, but I don't understand why to change the endgame when it is clearly possible for moderately skilled players to get out alive.

Super Jamie said:

I understand you're trying to appeal to skilled players, but that also requires at least a partially skilled mapper.

I admit that this map is riddled with flaws due to my inexperience as a mapper. I am sorry for all the silly annoyances, but it seems to me that there is enough good gameplay in the map to make it work salvaging. It is becoming more clear to me that you and other players dislike having to depend on monster infights, and I promise to keep that knowledge with me in future maps.

DuckReconMajor said:

I think you should take a break from SR2 and work on SR3. I can tell you're getting tired of working on it, and I think it would be good for you to start fresh, keeping a lot of what Super Jamie said . . .
I just think trudging along with a map you're tired of working on is going to drive you insane/make you quit Doom mapping. I wouldn't want that.

No need to worry about me quitting because right now mapping is a good outlet for my creative energy. As long as at least a few people have fun playing the maps I am making, then it is worthwhile for me. Would you like a sneak peek at what I have done so far for SR3? Although it needs an exit and some cleanup, a small part of it is playable right now.

The endgame (last room) of SR2 has not changed much at all since version 2. Removing a redundant teleport pad (which noone found AFAIK) was the last thing I remember doing.

Everyone, I have obviously gone a little too extreme in version 3. I really need some more feedback on where the map is unbalanced. Please do add more comments if you think there are too many hard monsters in the wrong places, or not enough health or ammo, or anything at all annoying or nonsensical. I am truly grateful for all the feedback so far; you guys are great playtesters. I sincerely hope you all will stick with me until SR2 is fixed and polished enough for the archives.