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Bloodshedder

The /newstuff Chronicles #340

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Don't all cyberdemons do that?


Yeah, but playing as the Cyberdemon, it's a lot more obvious - your rocket hand points to the right but the rocket shoots forward. It's only a minor complaint.

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JacKThERiPPeR said:

Yes, but on eye-candy it's better to use ZDoom features rather than Doom2.exe ones. If that's something.


There is no such thing as eye candy in Doom. Making ZDoom maps without an understanding of how to make a good vanilla map is like starting a restaurant without learning to cook.

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Dr. Zin said:

There is no such thing as eye candy in Doom. Making ZDoom maps without an understanding of how to make a good vanilla map is like starting a restaurant without learning to cook.


I already know how to map in Vanilla. I'm not the best at detail, but the basics of Vanilla is what I already know.
I'll try my best.

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I think that mapping for vanilla and not bothering to try "pushing the engine", so to speak (i.e. seeing how much visual detail and whatnot you can fit in before running into limits), just focusing on gameplay and layout design, could be a good learning experience. If you can make a map that's fun to play and interestingly laid-out without worrying about any of the other stuff, in addition to having made a fun map you've also gained experience that can be used in other projects in the future, for any engine.

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Oh yeah things were not always obvious in freame. Like in the yellow yard, the two switches have to raise first before you can use them to lower the elevators to the high switches (which then enable the red sparklers).

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Krispavera said:

I like mapping in vanilla, it's fun to work around the limitations.

I agree totally! Its an artform in its own right

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rf` said:

I agree totally! Its an artform in its own right

I agree more then totally! :-) I have even never tried to make non-vanilla map yet :-) The limitations always forces me to shape the map into much more interesting form than it had been planned. That's what I Love on it the most.

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Gusta said:

I agree more then totally! :-) I have even never tried to make non-vanilla map yet :-)


Yeah, I've never even tried making a zDoom map.. Vanilla mapping is great for just picking up and messing around with anyways. (which is how Demonic Libido came about >.>) I always enjoy putting on a CD, pouring a bowl of nachos, and starting a new map to see where it takes me.

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I originally fixed the offset of the rocket for the Cyberdemon, but it caused massive gameplay issues, rockets spawning inside walls, rockets unable to reach certain areas because of the angle etc. giving the Cyberdemon team a large disadvantage, so I put it back in the centre.

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When I said doom2.exe, I meant the limitations of making fun and engaging fights with the stock Doom 2 monsters. Instead of using a zillion zDoom monsters, most of which are garbage and unbalanced/redundant/not very fun to fight, but are tossed in anyway because MORE IS BETTER RITE?

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Way to rhetorically nitpick something when the point has been clarified and is pretty straightforward, printz. Vanilla is just a word that, like any, always needs a context to be clear. It can mean different things, such as "the DOS executable and not a port", "standard things, linedefs and sector effects", "the game out of the box without any modification", "Doom demo compatibility", and so on. Basically, it means "unmodified".

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Yeah, I was suggesting that even inside vanilla Doom's map editing limits, they can't really hide from the horrors of new monsters, especially the few from the bestiary compatible :) Sorry for inconvenience :)

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Freame 2 was everything I hoped for, except for the difficulty (and I was using -fast). Having said that, the new monsters were pretty good (esp. the wizards) and the staff was fun despite it being rather OP. The last boss was a bit of a let-down though.

Gez said:

Freame could have used some more polish (none of the doortracks are unpegged, and more importantly the blue-locked door can only be opened once, so if you don't drop the staff before opening it you're screwed) but despite that it was great. Very nice special effects, too.


There's also a jumping exploit, which shouldn't really be overlooked in a map that requires jumping. But ofc it can be ignored while playing.

udderdude said:

At least you should try and make some maps that don't use any zDoom-specific features.

They are only good when used sparingly, not all over the place.


Depends how well they are used, not how often ;)

JacKThERiPPeR said:

Yes, but on eye-candy it's better to use ZDoom features rather than Doom2.exe ones. If that's something.


Not really, ZDoom format just offers different ways of doing eye-candy. If people want to cram 10000 sectors into a map they can use any map format ;)

udderdude said:

When I said doom2.exe, I meant the limitations of making fun and engaging fights with the stock Doom 2 monsters. Instead of using a zillion zDoom monsters, most of which are garbage and unbalanced/redundant/not very fun to fight, but are tossed in anyway because MORE IS BETTER RITE?


Yeah...cos like using a zillion stock Doom 2 monsters hasn't been done before rite? :P

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dutch devil said:

Whatever you do don't stop with your project, ok you made an mistake, you can still fix that.

Pro tip:
Draw alot. I draw almost everything I make on paper first, make some changes to it if its needed. After that is done I create it in Doom Builder. Usually more ideas pop up whem making these areas, it works for me, I've been doing it for years. I take inspiration from all kinds of sources, and doom is only an small part of it.


Wow, I didn't realise that was a 'pro' thing to do. I have a few pages of a sketchpad and several pieces of scrap paper covered with sketches of ideas for my Doom 2 map 'Rienzi', many of which made it into the final PWAD almost unchanged. I like being able to show provenance, and besides the drawings remind me of where I was when I made them. :-)

Of course with the advent of 3D editing modes (I'm thinking of Doom Builder, which I just discovered), maybe drawing isn't quite as necessary as it used to be.

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Well I think there are as many correct mapping styles as there are experienced mappers; for example I've tried multiple styles, including drawing, just doodling in an editor or waiting for inspiration to strike and only the last one really works for me. If I try mapping without a good inspiration the maps will just come out completely forced and boring...so go ahead and try different styles to see what suits you best. :)

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cs99cjb said:

Wow, I didn't realise that was a 'pro' thing to do. I have a few pages of a sketchpad and several pieces of scrap paper covered with sketches of ideas for my Doom 2 map 'Rienzi', many of which made it into the final PWAD almost unchanged. I like being able to show provenance, and besides the drawings remind me of where I was when I made them. :-)

Of course with the advent of 3D editing modes (I'm thinking of Doom Builder, which I just discovered), maybe drawing isn't quite as necessary as it used to be.

I use Doom Builder and I still make simple sketches. It helps me alot, and it saves me alot of frustration. Of course thats just how I do it, other people probably have an different way of building their maps.

Never force yourself with mapping, and perhaps making drawings might even help you to get inspired. But there are more ways of getting inspired again, one good way is to play other doom maps.

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dutch devil said:

Never force yourself with mapping, and perhaps making drawings might even help you to get inspired.

If I don't force myself mapping my wads will gather dust, and often be removed.

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printz said:

If I don't force myself mapping my wads will gather dust, and often be removed.

Yeah. If we all refused to do anything we weren't 'inspired' to do, nothing would get finished. Many great ideas are born from forceful thinking, and they're no less significant than the spontaneous ones.

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I'm not surprised at all the flak Alando got for his rip-compilation weapons mod.

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