Fun with Street Fighter Alpha 2 tool-assisted gameplay

It's like I'm really playing Marvel vs. Capcom 2!

That would be funnier if there was a way to give the AI TAS-like powers, although I guess the biggest problem would be intelligence rather than response time. Maybe just speeding up the AI player 10 times would do the trick.

Maes said:

That would be funnier if there was a way to give the AI TAS-like powers, although I guess the biggest problem would be intelligence rather than response time. Maybe just speeding up the AI player 10 times would do the trick.

Making a fighting game AI that would be close to unbeatable would be more of a technical exercise. The reason you've never seen one in a commercial fighting game is because .. surprise .. it's no fun to be beaten mercilessly with no chance of winning.

The closest anyone has gotten is the bosses in SNK fighting games. People resort to doing the same move that the AI falls for over and over in order to win.

udderdude said:

The reason you've never seen one in a commercial fighting game is because .. surprise .. it's no fun to be beaten mercilessly with no chance of winning.

Ahem... Rise of the Robots, anyone? Granted, the game was leaking from several spots and there were major gameplay/AI differences between versions, but the PC's version AI was so powerful that it blocked pretty much everything you threw at it after a few moves.

Also, One Must Fall: 2097's highest difficulty modes (both of which were hidden though) were so hard that the AI practically blocked all standard moves and it was only possible to defeat it via bugs that made it through.

Come think about it, most fighter games' AIs can be consistently beaten by relying on certain moves that are not responded to properly e.g. MK3 had a bug that allowed continous netting -> sweeping with Cyrax (the yellow robot ninja), or making the AI opponent run only to meet him with a roundhouse kick to the face, or MK2 where jumping backwards made the AI do the same and land on roundhouse kicks or uppercuts, while fighting "normally" with standard moves put the player at a net disadvantage.

Even in more recent and critically acclaimed fighter games like the Tekken series they AI can be beaten consistently by "charging up", making the AI run towards you and delivering an "energy blow" that kills anything in one hit. OTAH trying to fight "normally" will inevitably result in a defeat.

Well, another thing is that the main attraction of fighting games is 2 player fights, not vs. CPU fights. So not as much effort is put into it, resulting in bugs like that. I think it would be possible to make an AI that no person could beat.

Also, those two PC games you mentioned are pretty much huge jokes. I can't believe anyone would even mention them.

It's entirely possible to create an invincible AI. In fact, I believe most of the effort put into AI opponents is making them stupid.

udderdude said:

Also, those two PC games you mentioned are pretty much huge jokes. I can't believe anyone would even mention them.

Rise of the Robots, I would agree with. OMF:2097, definitely not. I used to love that game.

Enjay said:

Rise of the Robots, I would agree with. OMF:2097, definitely not. I used to love that game.

OMF:2097 might not have been a huge disaster, but it still paled in comparison to other fighting games of it's time, like Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo .. which is still played today in tournaments and arcades. OMF:2097 was at best an attempt to cash in on Street Fighter 2's popularity, like a lot of post-SF2 fighting games did.

And yes, I played it when I was a kid as well. My nostalgia goggles fell off quite awhile ago. :P

Bucket said:

It's entirely possible to create an invincible AI. In fact, I believe most of the effort put into AI opponents is making them stupid.

Pretty much this. It's very easy for an AI to know things a player can't and react faster than a human can, but it's very difficult to make an AI that acts like a human does. You either end up with an invincible, cheating AI or a very, very stupid one. A lot of FPS games get around this problem by making the AI heavily scripted.

Snarboo said:

cheating AI

The truth is closer to this evergreen statement, from an old Warcraft: Orcs and Humans FAQ:

The #$%@ computer cheats!
Actually, the computer does not cheat, it just plays by a different set
of rules.

So there :-p

Heh, good article on that : http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheComputerIsACheatingBastard

Also http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MKWalker

udderdude said:

The reason you've never seen one in a commercial fighting game is because .. surprise .. it's no fun to be beaten mercilessly with no chance of winning.

Like the old MK series hidden characters then eh :p

udderdude said:

People resort to doing the same move that the AI falls for over and over in order to win.

Like the old SF2 cpu fights then eh :p (pretty patterns)

Anybody remember Wacky Wheels by Apogee? Arguably the best Mario Kart clone ever made for IBM PC compatibles, it had however an extreme rubberband AI.

If you did too well in a given race, you could expect the AI players (up to 7 in single player modes) not only keeping ahead of you and driving faster than your top speed in the next race, but they also all drove equally well, which meant that a fucking train of opponents formed right behind you ASAP, and at the slightest mistake you were surpassed by a train of 7 karts that drove flawlessly.

The only way to win a race or to place at least 3rd and qualify, was through speed bonuses and weapons, which however had to be used in ridiculous amounts vs 6 or 7 AI players at a time. Even knocking all opponents off would only give you 10-15 seconds of breathing time, after which the "train" would re-form behind you ready to surpass you at the slightest mistake.

Maes said:

Also, One Must Fall: 2097's highest difficulty modes (both of which were hidden though) were so hard that the AI practically blocked all standard moves and it was only possible to defeat it via bugs that made it through.

No way. I finished this game a handful of times back when I was a kid, and at least twice in my 20s. I loved it so much, and still do. Sure, it gets pretty hard, but it's progressive as you play and you adapt to it. It is however very hard to load a final-round savegame 6 months later and expect to win.

Rise of the Robots was crap. Wacky Wheels always seemed like such a cheesy shitty ripoff at the time, though I've since learnt it was enjoyed by alot of people. Mmm, I love 90s PC games, they're one of my most favorite things to think about.

And yes, the AI plays by a different set of rules than the player. This happens in Doom too, starting with the different hitscan attack damages for player/enemy.

@Super Jamie: I'm referring to the "Impossible" and "Ultimate" skill modes, both of which are secret, and "Ultimate" is hidden and only accessible via a cheat code, if I recall.

Oops, I missed that. I think I will have to play OMF again :)

Back when I was younger, I squeezed every last drop of fun out of the OMF demo that I could, and then squeezed out a bit more.

It's been released as freeware these days, and there appears to be a community over on omf2097.com. I found this remake in Ruby too.

I think I'll leave those memories untainted.