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David_Dweedle

Thinkin of gettin into Zdoom Mapping.. whats the learning curve?

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I wanna make some horror style slow theme sorta maps.. I also heard that in Zdoom you can easily add custom textures without hassle so thats another bonus.. but my main want for Zdoom is I heard you can make text appear on the screen,Slopes and I can make Great Traps(will be able to make an inescapeable pit because it will be a jump trap bahaha)

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Archvile78 said:

ZDoom wiki should be covering all of this. Check it out. o:


tried getting on.. I always seem to have probs gettin onto that Wiki.. seems to be working now tho.. didn't work 30 mins ago tho so dunno whats up with it lol.

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No offense intended, but I'd suggest getting a bit better at Doom/Boom mapping first.

A map with questionable layout/detail/balance/lighting is not magically improved by the appearance of ACS cutscenes and messages - quite the opposite actually.

Maps that require use of jumping, especially something like a running jump onto a 64x64 platform with certain death either side, do not often get a positive response. Whilst ZDoom may be able to handle that sort of thing, Doom is not a platformer.

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Super Jamie said:

No offense intended, but I'd suggest getting a bit better at Doom/Boom mapping first.

A map with questionable layout/detail/balance/lighting is not magically improved by the appearance of ACS cutscenes and messages - quite the opposite actually.

Maps that require use of jumping, especially something like a running jump onto a 64x64 platform with certain death either side, do not often get a positive response. Whilst ZDoom may be able to handle that sort of thing, Doom is not a platformer.


Thats a good idea for a Doom Wad.. Like Crash Bandicoot.. jump on Enemys to kill em rofl.

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You mean, the learning "slope"?..

Anyway...mapping for Zdoom is something I've also been meaning to learn for a while (before I got stuck with a laptop that can't run either DB). I at least want to learn how to do scripting and stuff, so I can make more convincingly choreographed parts, and more ornate switch effects without having to use all kinds of crazy unreliable voodoo tricks. As SuperJamie said, being able to map well (for vanilla) in the first place is essential, but the more you can learn the better.

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David_Dweedle said:

Thats a good idea for a Doom Wad.. Like Crash Bandicoot.. jump on Enemys to kill em rofl.

Look on YouTube for recent Mario Doom videos. It does just that.

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Mapping for ZDoom is very very easy, and I don't care that the original poster would have no idea how to map on Doom or Boom: maybe by mapping on ZDoom he'd have many more choices, and be more motivated to map.

Even GZDoom is dead easy, and allows 3d floors, which are very neat and unexplainably powerful.

I care even less: a bad/bland map with scripting, story and dynamic effects is better than a bad/bland map without them, so the try Doom/Boom before ZDoom point is moot... just sayin'.

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Super Jamie said:

Maps that require use of jumping, especially something like a running jump onto a 64x64 platform with certain death either side, do not often get a positive response. Whilst ZDoom may be able to handle that sort of thing, Doom is not a platformer.


Void by Cyb got a positive response. It can work.

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printz said:

Mapping for ZDoom is very very easy, and I don't care that the original poster would have no idea how to map on Doom or Boom: maybe by mapping on ZDoom he'd have many more choices, and be more motivated to map.

Even GZDoom is dead easy, and allows 3d floors, which are very neat and unexplainably powerful.

I care even less: a bad/bland map with scripting, story and dynamic effects is better than a bad/bland map without them, so the try Doom/Boom before ZDoom point is moot... just sayin'.

The idea is to avoid bad/bland maps to begin with by not trying to run before you can walk. The more attention you pay to the basics, the better the result is likely to be. The same principle applies to new mappers who say "ZOMG I R MAEKING TEH MEGAWAD! IT R TEH BESTEST EVAR!" and the result is usually pretty horrific because they're trying to be too adventurous too soon.

To say that you prefer a bad map with good scripting/etc to a bad map with nothing else seem a bit unusual, really. Fancy editing features won't change the fact that it's bad and it just means the potentially good idea and all the expended effort are simply wasted. The phrase 'polishing a turd' comes to mind. It's better to use any additional editing features to further enhance something that's already quite good.

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Alright, close mindedness stop right here. Maping with zdoom gives you more option, end of story. The thing you can do originally are extremely limited. While experienced mappers have lots of ways around this and know how to map well like this, some are just better when they have more options given to them, like ZDoom. Stop this non sense.

Some people need to live in the world where "the original Doom is just better". Maybe it is for you, not for everyone. Platformer not well receive, etc. What kind of close mindedness is that. Just because you need to jump to reach something, its not a platformer, and if thats what someone wants, why the hell do you step in his way?

The first ZDoom map one makes won't be good, either. There is absolutely no reason to mix both ZDoom and normal mapping immediately to experiment, and ultimately see how everything works, and what is good and what is bad. The problem with ZDoom editing doesn't have anything to do with understand basic maping or not: the feature that it allows can be frustrating or give an extremely different experience to the players. Seems like a lot of players around here hate change. But my point is, be careful what you do put in there. Extremely hard to pass through pits of death = bad. I included some in my first ZDoom map, and it actually sucked, so I just added an easy way through.

The learning curve for some ZDoom feature are a bit longer than others. Text, slopes, basic scripting are quite easy to learn if you have any basic logic in you. I'd greatly recommend you to try, anyway.

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Im making small test maps whenever I get the free time..(For Zdoom) But Maybe I should work with Vanilla for awhile till I get some better architecure.

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SFJake said:

Platformer not well receive, etc. What kind of close mindedness is that.

It's not closed-mindedness, it's just an observation. The Doom engine is not known for being very forgiving in regards to precise jumps, even some basic straferuns and RJs in the IWADs require a degree of accuracy. The kinetics and friction involved with the Doom engine mean you often have to backpedal when you land on a small platform, increasing your risk of falling off, especially if the platform is smaller than ~64^2.

As Creaphis said, some jumping maps like Cyb's Void work really well, but I think we all know Cyb's a Doom veteran with years of experience, so you can't really compare his map to someone's first foray into ZDoom design.

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David_Dweedle said:

Im making small test maps whenever I get the free time..(For Zdoom) But Maybe I should work with Vanilla for awhile till I get some better architecure.


Amen.

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It all depends where you want to go with your Doom editing. If you plan on being able to edit for all ports and to understand the Vanilla/Boom map format then definitely hone your mapping skills in that area first.

If, however, you only see yourself as mapping in ZdoomHexen (or UDMF) format, then jump straight in there. If you do it that way, there is very little in the way of additional learning curve. You just learn the format that you want to learn. Sure, there are more things to learn about in Zdoom format, but they are not harder, just different and more.

For me, the difficulty of moving to ZdoomHexen format was not learning the new techniques but unlearning all the old stuff that was now redundant and trying to find all the stuff that I knew should be there somewhere but I couldn't find because it was different.

Last summer, my 12 year old son took up Doom editing and went straight for the ZDoomHexen format. He had no problems doing so and I'm sure that, if he moved to Doom format, quirky odd things like line action types all being bound to specific activation types would seem very odd to him - and hard to learn.

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SFJake said:
Alright, close mindedness stop right here.

In a world where choices are valued, closed or open mindedness is a matter of attitude towards people who have different preferences or habits than ourselves and not a question of how many options what we do gives us. Calling people "close minded" and "nonsensical" because they have a different opinion is closed-minded. You're shocked because unlike in other places, here people don't assume an advanced port necessarily makes the game better. You might want to get used to the fact.

Just because you need to jump to reach something, its not a platformer, and if thats what someone wants, why the hell do you step in his way?

Heh, actually, DOOM does share some aspects with platformers. If you do speed runs of DOOM levels, you get game aspects that are similar to a platformer's, but adding in half a dimension. This goes for DOOM with or without added jumping capabilities, since you can still jump in various ways without them.

All that said, as far as I'm concerned, one can simply concentrate on the sort of mapping one likes best. If you like to play certain sort of maps, you're better off making maps that are of a similar sort.

Enjay said:
For me, the difficulty of moving to ZdoomHexen format was not learning the new techniques but unlearning all the old stuff that was now redundant and trying to find all the stuff that I knew should be there somewhere but I couldn't find because it was different.

Right, although in other respects the inclusion of those new features must have moved the way the game plays in another direction. Some of the more effective ZDoom WADs change a lot of dynamics in the game, while others are similar to classic levels but add editing capabilities. For the latter type, having a good grasp of the basics will be more important than for the former. In one case the new features are mainly transformative, in the other more of an extension.

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Wow, polarized overreactions all around! Ok not really, but still a few. I still stand by my original comment, which I re-hash to say:

"Learning advanced things is good, but learning basics first is probably better. Probably, but not necessarily."

As others said, if you intend to always map for that port in particular, or if your enthusiasm is urgently pulling you in that direction, then go for it. It's your life...

I consider Espi's Suspended In Dusk to be the best example I've ever seen of mapping for vanilla Doom. I'm sure there are many others, but that's just to show that you CAN make really awesome maps without advanced effects. However, your ideas may call for newer effects. It all depends on what you want to do with your map(s).

A few years ago I got carried away mapping for Legacy (because of their 3-d sector effect and other stuff) but now I feel that either not requiring 3-d sectors, or learning GZDoom to do it would be preferable (because it just seems like a better port all around). Now every time I plan a map, I ask myself, "What effects would this map need? What port should I design it for? Are there any unnecessary effects I can do without, or do better for a different port?".. And then you have to study your ports and all that. Basically I'd say the more mainstream/accessible the better, but I'm not even an expert on all Doom ports so I can't entirely say. I just know Vanilla/Boom will never be "outdated" (there are many hardcore vanilla Doom fans out there, plus it's the lowest common denominator), and for newer stuff Zdoom is probably the most commonly used, and GZdoom may be fancier but slightly less commonly used.

\END RAMBLING\

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Learning ZDoom is very easy, because that port has a huge fanbase that updates the documentation at clockwork activity and is always there to report any bug or inconsistency, as well as ask for popular features.

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