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Lutz

@#$% Heretic Textures!

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Heretic textures suck.

Well, no, not really – actually, most of them look pretty damn cool, and are certainly more artistically rendered than anything I could come up with. But, after working with the Doom I/II textures, I am finding the Heretic texture set remarkably limiting for the following reasons:

1) First and foremost – and maybe this is the entire problem – there just aren’t very many textures. I haven’t actually counted, but I’d guess that there are only a quarter to a third of wall textures, and maybe only half as many flats (and furthermore, of those flats, there are 5 sets of four-frame animations – so really, it’s only about a third as many floors and ceilings).

2) There are very few good edging textures (i.e. textures that can be used to divide one wall texture from another) – basically, it’s METL2 and WOODWALL, or perhaps REDWALL and the BLUE one if you aren’t going for realism.

3) Most of the base masonry textures share the same brightness/contrast. Now, this may be particular to my design style, but I usually look for some complementary contrasts when creating “man-made” structures – the problem is that, in my opinion, the Heretic textures don’t provide good enough contrast in anything but well-lit scenes. For example, the green stone blocks and CSTMOSS/ROCK are dissimilar enough at light levels greater than 200, but once you drop below that and get more than 10 feet away, they might as well be the same texture. Perhaps this is more a palette issue than a texture one, but however you define it, I’m finding it very difficult to get the lighting and texturing to compliment each other.

4) There are only 2 switch textures. Really. I mean, yes, it’s thematically helpful, but still – TWO? Also, the SW1ON/OFF (the non-exit type) is embedded in METL2 in such a way that it is impossible to have a stand-alone switch bigger than the size of the switch patch itself that is anything other than 64, 96, or 128 units high.

5) There are no textures that can be used as “light sources” other than LAVAFALL. (I realize that florescent bulbs weren’t common in medieval times, but come on – there’s not even a flame texture!)

6) This isn’t a texture issue, but I’m on a roll: there are no trees, or any type of naturally occurring vegetative THING. I’m a huge fan of the MOSS objects and the wall torches are a life-saver, (especially since there are no light-emitting textures), but trees and/or tall bushes could be really handy.

7) I wish there were a good ice wall texture – the ice flat is so friggin’ neat but the BLUEFRAG just doesn’t look good as the upper/lower texture of an ice ceiling/floor.

With all that said, I am having some fun with Heretic editing – still, it’s a LOT different from Doom, and some of the easy, cheap detailing solutions that Doom provides via the larger texture set and THING list just aren’t there. (And, for the record, I know I could add additional textures, but it kind of feels like cheating...)

Has anyone else out there shared these same frustrations? Has anyone found any nifty work-arounds for anything in the list above?

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Lutz said:

Has anyone else out there shared these same frustrations?


I enjoy working with it's textures. Really like it's more natural looking ones like the rocks. I think there's more than enough to use your imagination some. Thread where the shot came from.

Also, in before hexen rip suggestions.

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While limited, I always liked Heretic's texture set. It achieves the right atmosphere, and there isn't anything that feels out of place.

If you feel the texture set is too limited, you can always modify the existing textures to create new ones. There are plenty of more wood variations that can be made, as well as metal.

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I too think Heretic's texture set is pretty lame. They're so bright and cartoony, they're difficult to use in light levels that vary from what they appeared in in Heretic.

I like low light, and I find it hard to set the kind of mood I want to map without it.

Also, Iron Lich. Dumbest looking enemy evar.

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I've never tried building levels for Heretic, but I was never a huge fan of the textures for it. By contrast, I really like the textures for Hexen, probably because they're less cartoony and much darker thematically (as Hexen generally was.)

Doom, I think, still wins in texture variety/design though.

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Flats. Including animations: 63
Textures. Including animations and skies: 99

I'm making my project almost entirely without adding extra flats and textures.

The textures I've added are, a new sky, standalone MID texture versions of the banners, a 128 tall version of ORNGRAY (for compatibility reasons), and I've modified the METL2 texture (for compatibility reasons) and finally, I made a texture out of the Ice flat.

The flats I've added is a rotated version of the metal floor (FLOOR28) as well as a rotated version of the flowing water flat. (I rotated the original animated flat, and then added a new unrotated, static flat that I use with the one floor special that can scroll it's flats across the floor)

The only texture I actually even drawn anything at all on is the sky texture I made.

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Texturing in Heretic is a nice break from dressing Doom maps in the defaults, but yes it can be frustrating if you're not using custom gfx.

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If you think texturing with Heretic is hard, try texturing with just the shareware Heretic texture set.

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It's not so much that it's hard, but as Lutz already said, there are limited support/edge textures.

I think the worst part about Heretic textures is there is no particular themes. Well there is but there's about one texture per theme. Unlike Doom, the themes are Brown brick, Wood, outdoor/earthy, TEKGREN, GRAY, STARTAN, Hell, Gray brick, METAL2, etc.

Heretic has pretty much enough textures for one theme -- Heretic.

Super Jamie said:

Also, Iron Lich. Dumbest looking enemy evar.


I agree. I feel like it would be a nice head for a giant boss monster similar to cutmanmike's golem.

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Super Jamie said:

Also, Iron Lich. Dumbest looking enemy evar.


What are you on about? It's awesome.

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Nah, it looks cheap and tacky, not to mention implausible. A Lost Soul you can understand, they're small and fast and later you discover they're spawned from a larger monster as a projectile attack.

What the hell purpose does a massive floating iron head serve? They really break that whole "believability" barrier of Heretic for me.

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Super Jamie said:

Nah, it looks cheap and tacky, not to mention implausible. A Lost Soul you can understand, they're small and fast and later you discover they're spawned from a larger monster as a projectile attack.

What the hell purpose does a massive floating iron head serve? They really break that whole "believability" barrier of Heretic for me.

Yeah, when I hear the phrase "Iron Lich", I envision an imposing skeleton in ornate armor or maybe in an iron mask, but not a giant floating skull WTF.

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I've always found base game texture sets boring. I feel like having some new textures (well integrated with older ones ofc) is a granted common PWAD feature.

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I can't necessarily say I've found such things frustrating, but Heretic's minimalism does tend to force creativity. I don't know if what's worked for me will work for you, but as somebody who's been mapping for Heretic on and off since its release, here's what comes to mind...

Lutz said:

1) First and foremost – and maybe this is the entire problem – there just aren’t very many textures. I haven’t actually counted, but I’d guess that there are only a quarter to a third of wall textures, and maybe only half as many flats (and furthermore, of those flats, there are 5 sets of four-frame animations – so really, it’s only about a third as many floors and ceilings).

True, there's not a lot of textures compared to Doom, or even Hexen, but somehow I find they can have a lot more flexibility. Most can be reused for a variety of scenes and concepts without appearing redundant so long as the architecture is good. Sometimes you can make an entire map out of a single texture and have it look nice.

Personally, I work better with some limits because it saves me the stress of choosing from so many options and combinations then trying to balance them all. My mapping for Heretic has always been speedier than my mapping for Doom, though it's been to no less of a quality standard, and even when I get my most experimental, there's still an overall consistency that I'm sure I would have lost in Doom.

Though of course, that didn't stop me from adding about 100 new textures for my episodes :P

Lutz said:

2) There are very few good edging textures (i.e. textures that can be used to divide one wall texture from another) – basically, it’s METL2 and WOODWALL, or perhaps REDWALL and the BLUE one if you aren’t going for realism.

Depends what kind of scenes you're dividing up.

Heretic lends itself to large pillars or arches, not necessarily support beams like Doom, so your edging or theme-separation is probably best off as an architectural construction. GRSTNPB, TRISTON1 & 2, and SQPEB1 & 2 are common pillar and archway textures, but depending what you're separating, almost any texture can have a convincing transitional object built out of it.

For example, in one of my maps, I decided to use GRSKULL1 to separate 2 stone scenes. The 2 GRSKULL1 columns didn't look so great by themselves, so I went back and loaded up the previous scene with various GRSKULL1 columns and highlights, along with 2 larger wall constructs built around the GRSKULL2 & 3 facemasks. The previous scene looked a lot better for it, and a later scene built entirely around the GRSKULL* set looked a lot more natural and expected than sudden and random. CTY* stucco textures could also work if you've got full buildings elsewhere in the map, as could stone highlights in a city section which later expands into a dungeon, and so on and so forth.

Lutz said:

3) Most of the base masonry textures share the same brightness/contrast. Now, this may be particular to my design style, but I usually look for some complementary contrasts when creating “man-made” structures – the problem is that, in my opinion, the Heretic textures don’t provide good enough contrast in anything but well-lit scenes.

That's where I rely on the engine's forced orthagonal light/dark adjustments. I always hated that effect in Doom, but if you're not opposed to founding a majority your structures on 90-degree angles (since they are "man-made" after all), you can use it to your advantage and have a lot of light/dark highlights, with angled walls providing a properly-lit transition between the two extremes.

Lutz said:

4) There are only 2 switch textures. Really. I mean, yes, it’s thematically helpful, but still – TWO? Also, the SW1ON/OFF (the non-exit type) is embedded in METL2 in such a way that it is impossible to have a stand-alone switch bigger than the size of the switch patch itself that is anything other than 64, 96, or 128 units high.

And even worse, you only have ONE switch for anything that isn't an exit :o

It never really bothered me much though, since they're supposed to be embedded in a METL2 panel anyway. It's so common that it's almost a sign of laziness if an author doesn't embed their switches properly. I don't think I've ever made a switch that wasn't in a 16x32x32 alcove.

Though again, I did add some more switch patches by extending the SW1 textures to a width of 256, making matching METL2 columns every 64 pixels, and loading the 32-pixel gap between each pair with the switch patches from Hexen. After that, it was just a matter of offsetting the already-existant SW1 texture to use any of those patches - no hassle dealing with advanced texture info lumps or limiting engine compatibility due to their use.

But if you don't want to use new patches, just get fancy with the METL2 constructs you place your switches in.

Lutz said:

5) There are no textures that can be used as “light sources” other than LAVAFALL. (I realize that florescent bulbs weren’t common in medieval times, but come on – there’s not even a flame texture!)

They used torches, and I think that's why the wall torches are provided as things that can be placed, rather than as variations of the most common textures. It saves a lot of space, and you place as many or as few on every patch (or every other patch) of whatever wall you want. And the 3D look is nice too. I really do like them separate.

And if you want a fireplace, you can use a little trick of making a pit and filling it with those gargoyle statues holding up the burning pot so that only the tips of the flames are visible. I think you've got about 32 pixels worth of flame before the pot is visible.

Lutz said:

7) I wish there were a good ice wall texture – the ice flat is so friggin’ neat but the BLUEFRAG just doesn’t look good as the upper/lower texture of an ice ceiling/floor.

You could try importing the floor texture as a wall patch and making a 128x64 icewall texture using the patch stacked twice. I tried that, but it brings up an earlier problem you mentioned: no contrast. In fact, it was so non-existant that I almost thought blueflag looked better on the walls. But I went with remotely-realistic over flashy-looking and kept my icewall texture.

Hopefully re-using an already-existing flat on a wall wouldn't feel too much like cheating.

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Lüt: good reply, and that's a sweet looking little map. I imagine the texture alignment process was NOT trivial...

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For me, mapping for Heretic was hardest not because of the lack of textures, but because of the odd subdimensions of the textures. I mean like how you can't divide the textures with your architecture just anywhere. You have to learn a new set of texture offset values and sector heights for many of the new textures, which takes a while to learn.

In Doom, most textures can be divided like 64/64, 56/72 (startan), or 32/96, as where in Heretic it's like 52/76, 28/100, shit like that, etc...

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I can't say I've noticed much of that TBH. There are a few weirdos like SNDPLAIN. But most of them adhere to the standards of Doom.

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