Compet-n discussion [split from sticky]

jongo said:

hm, i've somehow overlooked this demo, good to watch it finally. Great one, kimo! ;) And i second Torr Samaho's feelings on Henning's 30nm, which i have finally checked out (yeh, i'm that slow!).
Don't stop guys, moar killer runs plz! And perhaps we could see something new from ocelot too? ;)

Even if I already had something, I might choose to wait until compet-n is revived in one form or another before choosing to upload. There are already lots of great demos languishing in /incoming without the recognition that they deserve, Hi Jango's contributions in particular. This is a sad thing for DooM speedrunning, and does not particularly increase my willingness to upload eventual fruits of hard work.

languishing without recognition? Well, maybe, but i've heard alot about these demos and enjoyed them myself too (and wondered who the hell is this guy, his skill is just amazing), though not here on this forum. Generally, i tend to agree with you, however. More feedback is surely needed for things like this.

jongo said:
Well, maybe, but i've heard alot about these demos and enjoyed them myself too (and wondered who the hell is this guy, his skill is just amazing), though not here on this forum.

He's also known as Chewy (earlier nick) or Potentpotables (or Pot-, Potent- variants), and indeed his skills are awesome. You should also be able to find 1on1 DM and CTF game ZDaemon demos of his that show other facets of his skills.

ocelot said:

Even if I already had something, I might choose to wait until compet-n is revived in one form or another before choosing to upload. There are already lots of great demos languishing in /incoming without the recognition that they deserve, Hi Jango's contributions in particular. This is a sad thing for DooM speedrunning, and does not particularly increase my willingness to upload eventual fruits of hard work.

Why not post existing and future demos in the compet-n thread like everyone else? People will watch and I'm sure will enjoy them.

TimeOfDeath said:

Why not post existing and future demos in the compet-n thread like everyone else? People will watch and I'm sure will enjoy them.

Well, I miss the old times when compet-n was alive, and everytime an iwad record of the major categories was beaten, it was a big deal. Now we have one forum thread with a small bunch of regulars left of all that. I've got some stuff lying on my HDD, but that's where it's staying for now. Waiting for better times...

ocelot said:
small bunch of regulars

Not to argue about your decision not to post demos right now as that's entirely up to you, but it's not necessarily a smaller group than the number of regulars that submitted to COMPET-N for the later period. I would say that without active people as seen here there'd be little incentive to put a COMPET-N site back online. Noting there are people here actively interested in competitive demos makes it concretely viable. If you can see people are recording, they will record.

I was going to say, it still appears to be a big deal, it just doesn't feel like it without the finality of the compet-n update, which in itself felt like an event after a while. Myk's comment reminds me of that famous quote from Field of Dreams, incidentally.

ocelot said:

Well, I miss the old times when compet-n was alive, and everytime an iwad record of the major categories was beaten, it was a big deal. Now we have one forum thread with a small bunch of regulars left of all that. I've got some stuff lying on my HDD, but that's where it's staying for now. Waiting for better times...

Yeah, keeping your improvements to yourself until they will be publicly stated as being more of an achievement than all other demos that use different settings or ports or a pwad that compet-n doesn't recognize sounds like a good idea.

TimeOfDeath, use your head next time you post, instead of a knee-jerk flame bait response.

In the first place, he didn't say anything about achievements or settings or ports. In fact, as it was pointed out above, the new COMPET-N offshoot may be using a source port specifically built for speed running, instead of the original executable. He was talking about recognition. Recognition is arguably harder without an engine that more or less guarantees a legit run. That was decently possible back before PrBoom, and especially PrBoom+, made TAS so handy and common that it's impossible to record competitively without relying heavily on good faith afterward. Secondly, he owes you nothing, and, if he wishes, he can record for himself, for his little sister, or for the day he sees a site he deems suitable for his recordings.

Personally, I'm all for recording and sharing, and even competing to the point it's possible, regardless of whether a site that guarantees competitiveness exists, and am quite grateful of all the people who continue to submit quality demos here or at the DSDA.

I totally agree with your last paragraph.

He might not owe us anything, but the fact that he's made improvements on records that have been competed on for years and hoarding them because he wants more recognition than what he'll get from us "small bunch of regulars" is kind of a douchebag thing to do. Do other people not agree? In the super mario kart community you'd get booed off the stage for hoarding times. If people are gonna support that behaviour then whatever.

I don't really understand the other stuff you said. You have to speak to me like a child cuz I'm kind of not smart. What's wrong with a little good faith? Are doomers really that paranoid about cheaters? Who do people think is cheating these days (I don't think anyone is)? Can't TAS be recognized by looking at the demo info or something?

Is the new compet-n source port gonna let you have a custom key config for weapons? Are more than a handful of pwads going to be recognized (ie: any and all pwads ever made)?

TimeOfDeath said:
he wants more recognition than what he'll get from us "small bunch of regulars" is kind of a douchebag thing to do.

If you want to take it personally... but that's pretty much the same as saying he does owe you something, and asking respectfully is usually more effective than immediate "you're a douche bag" complaints, unless one just wants to start a fight.

What's wrong with a little good faith?

Like I said, I value it, but it's not the same as an environment where people can feel sure they can be more competitive.

Can't TAS be recognized by looking at the demo info or something?

Not much anymore.

Is the new compet-n source port gonna let you have a custom key config for weapons?

No idea, it might depend on how much they are willing to deviate from previous behavior and how much they'll want to please people not willing to adapt.

Are more than a handful of pwads going to be recognized (ie: any and all pwads ever made)?

Is that necessary? It's not like it'll be a replacement to the DSDA or attaching on this forum. On the contrary, its role would be different. A limited number of WADs lets people concentrate on them instead of haphazardly throwing their skill onto an infinite number of levels (which you can still do, as usual, on the DSDA).

I did ask respectfully first. I tried to tell him that people will still watch and enjoy his accomplishments. But apparently one little thread on a forum where only a small bunch of regulars visit isn't good enough for his accomplishments. So then I turned into douchebag mode.

If the whole cheating possibility thing is really such a big deal to some players then I think they need to relax a bit. I don't consider anyone here to be cheating. Seriously, who do people think is cheating? Or is that something people only talk about in their fancy irc channels? I think the compet-n port idea that prevents any possibility of cheating is a great idea, but people don't have to be all paranoid and ignorant about other ports just over a possibility.

Always strafe50 can be detected in the demo info, can't it? Or do you mainly mean the re-recording stuff? That's kinda weird that re-recording can't be detected. Would people feel better if the prboom-plus players started using prboom instead?

From what I understand, the new compet-n times done on the new port will be separate from the old times that were done with the original exe, right? If that's the case, then I think now would be the perfect time to let people start using a custom weapon config in the new port. I don't think old players would necessarily have to adapt - it seems like they're already really quick with the default config. If anything, I think it would let more players compete - like players like me who "grew up" (even though I'll be 27 this year) playing/competing on zdaemon with the 'next weapon' and 'previous weapon' keys to switch weapons. When I started using prboom I used my zdaemon config and added some keys around them for common weapons. It took a while to learn to use the new keys quickly, and it'd take a lot longer to learn how to use the default weapon keys quickly and I'm not sure I ever will. So yeah, you'd get nothing but 'thumbs up' and 'thankyous' from me if you can customize your weapon config in the new compet-n port.

Don't get me wrong, I think compet-n is cool and competitive, but it always bothered me a bit that only a handful of pwads were recognized - especially given the reputation compet-n has for being competitive. There are tons of wads out there that test different forms of skill, and the fact that only a handful of wads were chosen (years ago, I might add) gives the impression that "these pwads are the best competitive pwads ever made". So yeah, I guess I feel compet-n should've stuck with just iwads and leave the dsda+forum for pwads.

TimeOfDeath said:
Don't get me wrong, I think compet-n is cool and competitive, but it always bothered me a bit that only a handful of pwads were recognized - especially given the reputation compet-n has for being competitive. There are tons of wads out there that test different forms of skill, and the fact that only a handful of wads were chosen (years ago, I might add) gives the impression that "these pwads are the best competitive pwads ever made". So yeah, I guess I feel compet-n should've stuck with just iwads and leave the dsda+forum for pwads. [/B]

MM, MM2, HR, Requiem, and Classic Episode were added after a vote. Anyone who wanted to could vote. AV was added later. That may have been an executive decision though, I don't remember.

yes AV was Adam's decision as he felt a vote was unnecessary as it obviously deserved to be added. I think this shows that the set of PWADS available to be played should be small to provide for high quality demos, but that new wads should be added from time to time.

TimeOfDeath said:
I did ask respectfully first. I tried to tell him that people will still watch and enjoy his accomplishments. But apparently one little thread on a forum where only a small bunch of regulars visit isn't good enough for his accomplishments. So then I turned into douchebag mode.

Yeah, I meant insisting with being respectful, rather than dropping it midway.

If the whole cheating possibility thing is really such a big deal to some players then I think they need to relax a bit.

Relaxing or whatever doesn't change the facts. It's about what the unaccountability does to things.

I don't consider anyone here to be cheating.

I tend to believe that as well but it's largely a matter of faith, not knowledge. What sort of testing or examinations have you been practicing to reach the conclusion?

Seriously, who do people think is cheating?

No one is accused of such a thing and shouldn't be without any evidence, but it isn't something that can really be examined too much.

Or is that something people only talk about in their fancy irc channels?

Is that a burn at #nightmare? It probably wouldn't be hard to stereotype you as well, would you like that?

people don't have to be all paranoid and ignorant about other ports just over a possibility.

What ports, PrBoom+? Who is ignorant? Are you more knowledgeable? Whether ocelot or whoever chooses to participate in the current circumstances, where some additional good faith is required, is their choice and calling anyone who doesn't "paranoid" isn't going to help anybody.

Always strafe50 can be detected in the demo info, can't it?

Yes.

Or do you mainly mean the re-recording stuff?

That, and slow motion or the use of any features not found in the original engine would be very hard, if not impossible, to detect, especially if used by a technically savvy player who can avoid whatever could give him away.

That's kinda weird that re-recording can't be detected.

It's not like then engine writes something special in there when it records from a saved game. The results are compatible with the original engine.

Would people feel better if the prboom-plus players started using prboom instead?

We were talking about COMPET-N demos, which don't use either. I think PrBoom (and not PrBoom+) does have a difference from Doom, where it writes SR50 tics differently, making its demos distinguishable from Doom's. It's easy to compile it without that difference, though, so it doesn't solve things.

If that's the case, then I think now would be the perfect time to let people start using a custom weapon config in the new port. I don't think old players would necessarily have to adapt - it seems like they're already really quick with the default config.

You can speculate, but you should assume that any practical change on the engine has some effect on the playing, some of which can be unpredictable.

If anything, I think it would let more players compete - like players like me who "grew up" (even though I'll be 27 this year) playing/competing on zdaemon with the 'next weapon' and 'previous weapon' keys to switch weapons.

Yes, that would be the pro of choosing to include such a change. Perhaps they will allow some small changes, and point them out so the old demos, while a base for the new ones, can also be taken as part of a stage of their own, from the perspective of the new site.

Don't get me wrong, I think compet-n is cool and competitive, but it always bothered me a bit that only a handful of pwads were recognized - especially given the reputation compet-n has for being competitive.

Keeping in mind there's always been the DSDA to fall back to, COMPET-N has a more reduced number to encourage what we've pointed out above; a more intense and lasting competition on the chosen levels. Had COMPET-N continued to have updates from Adam, perhaps more would have been added with time. The Quake SDA, which was initially more strict than COMPET-N in this sense, made a change in this respect. Initially it took demos only from the ID games and the expansion sets, but now they add custom levels periodically.

Nice try, myk, but you're not going to turn me into a paranoid witch-hunter just by restating facts over and over. :P

I wasn't bashing #nightmare, I don't even know what that is. Obviously I haven't examined demos to look for cheating. I'm just saying, none of the demos I watched made me think "oh this guy is totally cheating", and I'm not going to stop playing/competing or get my panties in a bunch just because there's always some possibility - and if other people will stop playing/competing/etc. then I think they should relax a bit. I already said I think the new compet-n port is a great idea to prevent any possibility. You were the one who said prboom/+ made tas so handy that it was impossible to record competitively without lots of good faith, so that's why I said people don't have to be paranoid and ignorant about other ports just over a possibility. One way for players to semi-prove themselves could be to videotape them playing live - like, first point the camera at the comp screen and show the batch file, show the filesize of the exe, show the "speed" setting on the hud, then try demo'ing a level. There's probably other things the person could do, any ideas? I think some live vids would be cool to see anyway. I've never been to a video game meeting in real life (not even for super mario kart).

TimeOfDeath said:
Nice try, myk, but you're not going to turn me into a paranoid witch-hunter just by restating facts over and over.

Try at what? Unless you mean it's all bouncing off your head!

I wasn't bashing #nightmare, I don't even know what that is.

An IRC channel where, traditionally, COMPET-N and Doom2.net people hang out.

Obviously I haven't examined demos to look for cheating.

That was kind of clear by your apparent lack of surety on whether cheating was or wasn't detectable. Which makes some of your arguments silly. If you don't really know at what level cheating is possible or detectable, it's not very wise to call other people "paranoid" or the like.

I'm just saying, [...]

Kind of cute that you told me I was restating facts and then you go on and repeat the things you've already said.

and I'm not going to stop playing/competing

Cool! (And no one's saying you should.)

or get my panties in a bunch just because there's always some possibility

But you do get your panties in a bunch because some guy decided not to record, saying he needs a more secure means to ensure competitiveness.

and if other people will stop playing/competing/etc. then I think they should relax a bit.

I haven't seen anyone do that. Ocelot hadn't been contributing since Adam quit updating COMPET-N, or thereabouts. It's not that he stopped. He just didn't start again, because he didn't see the conditions to do so.

One way for players to semi-prove themselves could be to videotape them playing live - like, first point the camera at the comp screen and show the batch file, show the filesize of the exe, show the "speed" setting on the hud, then try demo'ing a level.

Well, there's also playing online, but the hard-to-catch issue is subtle cheating, so that's not very useful unless people videotape practically everything they record.

There's probably other things the person could do, any ideas?

You mean for the new executable? If you mean to apply now, I don't think it's worthwhile. I'll go with the "good faith" part. It's just that it's necessary to understand the conditions of things. Anyone could cheat, so let's not take competitiveness as seriously or stridently as when recording for COMPET-N. Like I said before, I'm all for seeing new awesome demos like the ones that keep being uploaded, even if the chance of cheating exists, but no one should have to feel forced to contribute or to be called names because they aren't uploading stuff.

No, I meant "any ideas" for recording a live video.

I haven't played online for a long time because my dooming computer still can't connect to the internet for some reason (yet it can still access my router). I use a laptop for the internet but it really sucks for dooming because of the keyboard.

I really can't believe you're still defending ocelot. He's hoarding his improvements and dissing the forum about how it's not good enough for his achievements. I know you hate me, but come on!

Basically, what Myk said.

TimeOfDeath - try spending a few months on a run to cut of a second, then get back to me how much the potentional cheat issue (which basically require the press of a key these days in classic ports), would discourage you from uploading your achivement to the masses - before theres a better environment to prevent cheating. Ocelot was not dissing anyone, you are dissing him and his preference.

He enjoys the activity on this forum as much as the other guy, go check out his latest comments on the episode 3 uv speedrun by kimo for instance. You accuse him of dissing? I see only one guy showing disrepect here.

I dont wanna get into specifics on the new Compet-N, too early. The goal is a hardcore competitive "back to its roots" site, hopefully it will grant a functional updated recording environment. Cheating can never be 100% prevented, in the end its a trust issue. We can however, make it less appealing and less available than it is atm. I dont blame anyone for holding out until that comes around.

This forum is a great source for recorded entertainment and the only good place next to the DSDA and #nightmare for people to gather around doom speedrunning. Nobody is knocking it.

TimeOfDeath said:
I know you hate me, but come on!

Trust me, if I hated you, you probably wouldn't be here. I know more or less how you are and also how ocelot is, thus I feel I make a good arbiter (aside from the fact that's my role here as a mod.) This is why I bothered with long responses and the like. Not because I hate you but because I think you have a place here and can tell that differences can be sorted out.

Don't worry about ocelot. Trust me, he's a good natured fellow. You might get to know him a bit with time. His comment didn't bear a bad intent, just his regret that a site like COMPET-N isn't active in the way it was back when he was submitting demos. And this forum is doing well. His comment about not wishing to submit, which he made frankly because he was specifically asked, isn't going to make people go away.

Hi,

It sounds like Andy Vendetta is the paranoid one. Ocelot didn't say anything about holding his records back because of others cheating. According to him, he's holding them back because of a suspected lack of recognition. I still think that's pretty funny. Why should someone get more recognition for spending months on one run instead of "haphazardly" recording on more than 6 pwads?

I still think holding back improvements isn't a good idea. Regardless of the reason, it's like a slap in the face to all the other players who still post their demos in the thread.

Mister Vendetta, what makes you think I haven't spent a long time working on one run? I've probably spent more time working on single runs for super mario kart than doom (since doom has so many different maps/wads, I'd rather play many). In smk, someone could use an emulator with save states (tas) and then post a video file of their run without anybody knowing they used an emulator. It's happened before. But the community is close and shows good faith. Players don't keep their improvements to themselves, myself included.

Bye

TimeOfDeath said:

Hi,

It sounds like Andy Vendetta is the paranoid one. Ocelot didn't say anything about holding his records back because of others cheating. According to him, he's holding them back because of a suspected lack of recognition. I still think that's pretty funny.

Again, you make some statements intially then try to flip it over on us when we try to explain the reasoning behind respecting people who dont want to jump the gun with releasing the fruits of their work. Ocelot didnt say much at all, but you are reading some hostility or disrespect into it which is not there.

TimeOfDeath said:
Why should someone get more recognition for spending months on one run instead of "haphazardly" recording on more than 6 pwads?

Thats how this world works, most of the time. If you can produce something few people can, it stands out and thus gets more recognition.

TimeOfDeath said:
I still think holding back improvements isn't a good idea. Regardless of the reason, it's like a slap in the face to all the other players who still post their demos in the thread.

Nobody owes anyone to release anything they make, at any time. I've known high caliber doom players who always kept their demos privat, even at the peaks of compet-n activity, just because they didnt crave the attention. They just made demos for their own entertainment, or sent it around to a few selected friends. What the hell is wrong with that? Who are you to get insulted if I record something and decide to keep it private?

TimeOfDeath said:
Mister Vendetta, what makes you think I haven't spent a long time working on one run? I've probably spent more time working on single runs for super mario kart than doom (since doom has so many different maps/wads, I'd rather play many). In smk, someone could use an emulator with save states (tas) and then post a video file of their run without anybody knowing they used an emulator. It's happened before. But the community is close and shows good faith. Players don't keep their improvements to themselves, myself included.

Whatever you apply to another community, I dont care. You seem to think theres some unwritten rule that other players owe you entertainment or competive material, sorry bub. Not so. Those who do wanna share their work, for whatever reason, make plenty of stuff avilable here tho. Focus on that instead of being a grumpy old fart about stuff thats frankly none of your business.

Kinda off topic but related to cheating potential, I noticed that going to: options/general/'displayoptions'/change first 5 from 'point' to 'rounded' in prboom plus, changes graphics or whatever but also has a side affect of making game speed about 80% as fast for me, I guess due to the extra computation required.
Or maybe even in doom2.exe you could simultaneously have a dummy program running in the background, like a simple looped program that adds numbers repeatedly forever just to eat computer resources to slow the game down (if that would work).

TimeOfDeath said:
I still think holding back improvements isn't a good idea.

If you have a position or idea and pursue it in an annoying way, you give your idea a bad name. If you want to convince people, rely more on charm and tact than name-calling or accusations. If you value sharing, keep doing it and show why you favor it, but don't demand it from others. Sharing is sharing only when it's an option and not a given.

Ocelot didn't say anything about holding his records back because of others cheating. According to him, he's holding them back because of a suspected lack of recognition.

These are related, as it's hard to have recognition if the conditions for thorough competition are questioned.